Another Tyler, TX thread....important question though....

[itgoesboom]

The situation in Tyler, TX has brought up many questions regarding tactics in dealing with an active shooter situation, especially one where body armor might be a factor.

We all know that a pistol is a poor stopper to begin with, and that hitting a moving head sized target at 25, 50, or even 100 meters is going to be extremely tough, if not impossible, especially considering the adrenaline dump that a person would experience. And if the shots are going towards the armed good guy, it would be even more difficult.

With that in mind, I have read several places where people advocate having a rifle or carbine in their trunk or truck to deal with exactly this situation.

But that brings up an intresting question.

Hypothetically, an active shooter with an assault style weapon is shooting up a public place, and you have a rifle in your vehicle, and can access it. Police are on the scene, but so far are not effective at bringing down the shooter.

Police that are on their way are recieving scetchy information, that one or more gunmen with assault weapons are actively shooting in public.....

Is that really a good time to pull out that SKS that you have been stashing in your truck?

How do you avoid being mistaken as the active shooter?

I.G.B.

 

[DelayedReaction]

It's not your job to save the world, it's your job to get the hell out of there. CCW isn't a hero license, it's authorization to carry a weapon in order to use lethal force in self defense.

If you're hell bent on keeping a rifle in your car, then tell a cop before you get it. Inform the police officer that you possess a rifle capable of stopping the individual, and that you believe you have the skill to remove him. Going solo will merely guarantee additional confusion among the police, and confusion is not something you want when lethal force is authorized.

 

[itgoesboom]

Delayed,

I just want to make it clear that I am not advocating getting involved, or even carrying a truck gun. I personally don't. I used to keep one for when I would go the range, but that was several years ago.

I have thought about it in the past, but never follow through with it, because, as you said, "it's not my job to save the world". That doesn't mean that I think others shouldn't have a truck gun, or even get involved.

The purpose of this thread is to get those people who would rush in with their rifles to think of the possible consequences, the confusion that it would cause. As the saying goes, "friendly fire isn't".

I.G.B.

 

[HighVelocity]

Keeping a rifle in the trunk/truck "just in case" is a really bad idea imho.
It is more likely to be stolen and used in a crime than saving the town from an armor clad psycho hell bent on destruction.

 

[GEM]

There's no fixed answer and those that pose one are blowing hot air.

The Texas Tower incident clearly shows that civilian long arms have been useful as was the incident where a hunter saved an officer with a distance shot.

Should you run into the fray - probably a bad idea because of the ID problem. Having an appropriatley secured and hidden long arm in today's world - you never know and I wouldn't poo-poo the idea. It might get stolen, you might save a life. Make your choice.

 

[duckslayer]

I think is is more likely you will win the lotto than you will ever encounter a situation like this. Yes, many of us carry pistols in case we have to protect ourselves and families from violence, but I think one has to draw the line somewhere (and for me that line is drawn after my handgun). It is also remotely possible to have to repel enemy aircraft that are strafing your town, so would you keep an anti-aircraft gun in your trunk as well? I don't mean that to be rude, but I am trying to convey my point that at some point you have to just play the odds and realize that you cannot be prepared for everything that MIGHT occur, you just have to be prepared enough to give your best shot at protection from threats that actually have a probability of materializing.

 

[CentralTexas]

"Not a license to get involved"

I'm sure I think a bit different about it than much of the country. I was raised in Texas and we believe in help and sacrifice for others.
The UT Tower sniper would have killed many more if average citizens hadn't pulled rifles out of their car trunks. As far as I know none of them had a license to carry as it wasn't the law then. The Alamo and Audie Murphy are part of our mental makeup here. I find it noble for a person to intevene on others behalf even at great personal risk. Here we applaud folks like Mr. Wilson and honor his memory.Everyone makes a personal choice and if you choose to not take action that is up to you. I have no doubt Wilson would have done what he could have even if he didn't have a "Hero License".
CT

 

[spacemanspiff]

up here in alaska, it isnt uncommon for a person to have a long rifle in their vehicle, so this question is rather valid. i'm sure that there are countless people across the states that also have rifles on hand and secured in their vehicles.

i think that a person should keep in mind that doubletaps to center mass may not be 100% effective. even shooting to slide lock with a handgun may not do any real damage.

now i dont know about anyone else, but outside of 10 yards, realistically, head shots are out of the question for me. i need more practice, but even on my best days, when i'm at the range shooting in a controlled environment, without the aforementioned adrenalin dump associated with being in a life/death situation, i would probably wind up hitting the imaginary parrot sitting on the bad guys shoulder rather than his brainbucket.

and it would probably take running through an entire mag at center mass before i realized what i really needed to be shooting at.

would i have done differently in tyler? no.
would i have suffered the same fate as Mr Wilson? yes.
if i had walked out the door with a rifle instead of a handgun, would the outcome have been different? maybe.

 

[Imaginos]

Rethinking Compact Weapons

When I was a kid, a pickup without a rifle rack and a 30-30 or .30-06 was a rare thing even in the "big city". If someone wants to keep a long gun in his vehicle, more power to him. I hope it doesn't get stolen.

For a long time, I have watched the evolution of the ulra-compact pocket pistol and wondered if the focus on concealability and ease of carry has gone so far that it has become a liability.

While the chances of any of us having to use our weapons for defense is pretty remote, we should be aware that if that dark day ever comes, the last thing we need is a weapon that has been compromised to a point where it cannot meet the needs of the situation.

Snubbies (auto or revo) sacrifice muzzle velocity and sighting plane to be more compact. This is no real concern IF your assailant is less than 25 yards away, and you have a realtively unobstructed view of your target. As Itgoesboom has already pointed out, long shots are hard enough without the added limitations of the compact weapon.

Since the BG is normally the one who decides where, when, and how he will commit his crimes, planning your equipment package and training around the "standard" scenario leaves a lot to chance.

I'm not advocating planning for WWIII as part of your daily routine. However, I think I will stick with my standard service pistol and practice long range shooting.

 

[duckslayer]

I'm not advocating planning for WWIII as part of your daily routine. However, I think I will stick with my standard service pistol and practice long range shooting.

I agree with that. I also need to hit the range a lot more often and practice my accuracy.

 

[george_co]

Well first off ..

I would put on my chain mail suit made of Concealed Weapon Badges - that way the police will know that I am a good guy!

Okay, that was offered in jest. Now, the reality is that the police are not going to know who or what you are regardless of carrying a revolver, sks, 870, or Marlin 39a. Any time you involve yourself in an active shooter situation you run the risk of being shot by the police. Police have shot enough of their own plain clothed dectives to prove that. All you can do is hope that whoever shows up takes the time to try to figure things out before they shoot you. And, if a cop does show up DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD!

However, there is no guarantee that if you are in an active shooting situation that any police are going to show up to help you. For example Columbine, the police stayed outside for 3 hours while citizens died! As a poster mentioned on another thread police are trained not to charge into situations where they may just be another casualty. They are trained to create a perimeter, if you are inside the perimeter you are on your own.

The days of riding around with your guns in a gun rack are behind us, except in a few of the remote areas of the west where you can still leave the keys in your truck, the windows rolled down and your favorite ranch rifle in the truck and expect it all will still be there when you get back. So in most of America that leaves you with a gun in a gun case subject to rusting, having things thrown on it etc. Having a readily accessable rifle is just not realistic for most of us.

Personnally, I carry my pistol, a spare mag, and a box of ammo in the truck. If I can't resolve the problem with those items, I am SOL. If I am facing a rifle armed opponet, with armor, my chances of using up even the first mag is pretty low.

Just my thoughts.

 

[orangeninja]

Some things you could consider should you deem it wise to engage a shooter in a situation like in Tyler with a long gun kept in your car/truck.

1.) Call 911 or get the attention of a cop nearby and have them inform their dispatch of your disposition and intentions. Be sure to include a description of yourself. I.E. your hat and shirt.

2.) Get somthing that would identify you more as a responder than an attacker. A nice bright medical bag slung on your shoulder would not only help identify you, but aid in patching up victims you may encounter. Sometimes the best way to save a life is with a compression bandage not a bullet. A good example would be as attached.

3.) Listen to any police in your area, don't argue, don't try to explain, conform to their orders immediatly and the first time. Things can sort themselves out in due time.

 

[DelayedReaction]

I'm not suggesting that if you have the ability to help someone you shouldn't. I'm a firm believer in being there for people who need it, and I carry emergency equipment in the back of my car in the event of an accident that requires first response. But I would personally draw the line at keeping a rifle in the back of my car expressly for this kind of situation.

On the other hand, what would you do if you had the capability and were on scene? Personally I would call 911 and have them tell me what to do. I was always under the impression that communication is critical in situations like this, and getting integrated into that communication network through a dispatcher would be a good way to start.

 

[carebear]

delayed,

Dispatchers are probably the worst folks to ask for instructions in that situation, they are almost uniformly not trained on how to respond to situations in progress nor would they have anything resembling a comprehensive idea of what is actually ging on. They are responsible for transferring information between officers, they are not some sort of tactical control command post.

For liability purposes they will typically say "do not get involved and leave the area". Which is, of course, usually good advice.

But these are the same folks who time after time will dispense such pearls of wisdom as "put the gun down" to women who are hiding in closets waiting for the home invader to find them PRIOR to police actually arriving on scene.

You are responsible for your own actions in any situation. Figure out what you are willing and capable of doing and do it. Be prepared to accept the consequences. Other than that, if a uniformed or positively ID'd officer starts giving you commands, do what he says in the safest way possible for you.

I'd like to point out that an officer arriving on the scene of an active shooter firing on cops and unarmed civilians would, I hope, not target the guy firing on that guy first. I give them a little more credit for situational awareness than that.

 

[itgoesboom]

So far I think there are some good responses here in the thread.

As Gem and Central Texas have pointed out, civilians have taken part in bringing down active shooters in the past. And I am sure we could find more examples of civilians providing rifles to outgunned police officers, the West Hollywood shootout is one example where the police got rifles from a gun store to help end the shootout. I think the case in Colorado where a man turned a bulldozer might be another case of this. If I am not mistaken (and I very well could be), a civilian either shot or loaned his rifle to help the police, even though it was largely ineffective.

Here in S&T everyone discusses almost every possible draw/don't draw, shoot/don't shoot scenerio, but this is a topic that gets left out.

What got me thinking of this is that while I don't keep a rifle in my truck, I occasionally have thought of putting my SKS in a locked truck box, and that most people, even police officers can't tell the difference between a SKS and a AK style rifle. And since almost everytime that there is a major shootout, you hear the rifle described as being an AK-47 rifle.

That right there got me thinking that anything that would make me look like the bad guy is a bad idea.

So I honestly hope that this thread helps people consider how they would personally react, taking into account the issue of police identifing you as either a bad guy or good guy.

I.G.B.

 

[carebear]

Again, try to be shooting the same direction at the same target the police are. They aren't necessarily looking for a badge in the middle of a firefight either, but anybody shooting at the same target has got to make a good first impression.

 

[Vic303]

I guess if I had a long arm in the vehicle & could access it AND the cops were on scene & ineffective, I suppose it would be best to offer to get the long arm FOR THEM and let them shoot the perp with it. That way I don't get hit with a lawsuit, and likely do not risk incoming fire too. Just my .02 worth

 

[orangeninja]

Be sure that you know that he who is in uniform, is in charge. This is repeated over and over to plain clothes and off duty cops. Now repeat this mantra unto thyself.

"He who is in uniform, is in charge."

 

[GEM]

The days of forming a perimeter with an active shooter are gone. Police now are being trained to be active first responders and go for the shooter. There was a sea change after Columbine. Whether this is a good idea is debated.

I was an active shooter against squads of police (in FOF). I had a long arm and they had pistols. It was very tough for them. When we had two active shooters with some knowledge of tactics, they were in extreme difficulty.

Low probability events are low probability events. I have carried a firearm for many years and never used it. Is there a chance that I might need a long arm - I work in a place that could be a target. Might I make it to the car and join the fray or flee? Who knows. I would like to have an option but most workplaces look askance at heavily arms loaded cars in the parking lot.

 

[Zundfolge]

For a long time, I have watched the evolution of the ulra-compact pocket pistol and wondered if the focus on concealability and ease of carry has gone so far that it has become a liability.

I think you need to take a second look at that evolution.

50 years ago a "pocket pistol" would be chambered in some anemic cartridge like a .25acp or .32acp ... now there are plenty of "pocket pistols" in serious calibers like 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp. ... a Kahr MK40 ain't your grandpa's baby Browning

In addition, planning your CCW based on an incident like this, which is EXTREMELY rare, is kind of like those people who don't wear their seat belts because their car might catch fire or fall in the water and trap them.

There is a bit of an odds game here.

The VAST majority of DGUs are going to be against unarmored thugs, not nutjobs wearing body armor and packing a rifle (if you're routinely having run ins with guys with body armor and rifles, its time to get rid of the meth lab ).

Even if the gentleman in Tyler had been packing a fully loaded HK Mk23 he would probably met the same end ... and if a Mk23 is your primary CCW, I imagine there will be a lot more days that you just don't carry (and remember, the first rule of a gun fight is; bring a gun).

More important then what he was packing was the fact that unlike the majority of American adults he was carrying and unlike the majority of American adults who do carry he stood up and did something (because I still doubt that most of us who CCW, even us THR folk, would have done the same as he...and thats fine because a CCW is not a badge...as for me, I don't know what I'd have done).


So I wonder how long 'til we hear from the FiveseveN guys?

 

[Texian Pistolero]

I am thinking that the Tyler episode could have been solved better with a scoped bolt gun that another AK/SKS/AR type.

Take cover, drop him at leisure.

A scoped bolt gun, at least in the red states, generally does not draw attention, and if stolen, is a poor tool for convenience store robbery.

If you have another AK it is still a 50/50 matchup. It is easy to forget that this particular bad guy was a gun enthusiast, presumably well trained, and had had an anger cycle building for a long time over the divorce. He was a heavy hitter, not a garden variety psycho. We should be thinking more about the man, than the tools.

 

[mfree]

This raises an interesting legal question for Tennesseans I'll have to bring up when i finally land myself in a CCW class.

Tennessee has a "good samaritan" law that *requires* you help someone in mortal distress, at least that's how I understand it. We'll see how that gets interpreted, I assume... I need to do more research.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the law, it just exempts those assisting from lawsuits down the road, and is intended for first responders, off duty EMTs, doctors, nurses, etc. helping during accidents and disasters.

But, the way it's worded could make it useful in the case of a shooting to keep another from being murdered.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Pretty simple, if you ask me.

"Officer, I have a deer rifle in my trunk, and I'm a great shot. Do you need any help?"