Anyone loaded any Speer 135 GD .38 Spl?

[rcmodel]

I'm in a quagmire here.
I finally found a box of Speer #4014 135 Gold Dot Short-Barrel bullets for sale.
Had to pay nearly $25 bucks for one box!

So, I loaded 50 with 5.2 grains Unique, as prescribed by Speer's current load data. Tested in gallon milk jugs of water out of a 2" S&W J-Frame and a 4" S&W K-Frame at 5'.
The 2" bullets were so NOT deformed I could have reloaded them again.
The 4" gun managed to deform the HP nose to less then bullet diameter!
And they just "feel" wimpy!

So, back at the ranch, I pulled the remaining bullets and loaded them again with 5.4 grains Unique, which was outlined in a recent Brian Pearce test in Handloader magazine. Too much snow to get up the hill to the range now, so I haven't tested them again.
But somehow, I doubt 0.2 grains more powder is going to make much difference in expansion.

Power Pistol apparently is the powder that gives the best velocity.
But I don't have any, and I don't want to buy a pound of it for the remaining 50 bullets I have left!
Anyway, it only adds 77 FPS over the 5.2 Unique load.

The part that really has me stymied is, the #13 Speer manual shows 6.0 grains Unique +P MAX with the 125 Gold Dot, but current data only 5.2 with the 135 Gold Dot.
That right there just don't seem right!
To further add to the "Old data/New data" debate, 5.5 Unique used to be +P max with a 160 grain jacketed bullet.

Not that I condone it for anyone else, but I think the remaining 50 bullets are going over 5.5 grains Unique!

Anyone tried anything else with the 135 GD .38 Spl that worked as advertised?

rc

 

[Black_Talon]

Sir,

Contact me via email and I'll send you an actual Speer load data sheet for this bullet. It has loads in the 1000fps area out of a 6" K38. I have it as a pdf file and I actually got it from one of the members here at THR. FWIW, their Unique max load in this data is 5.2 gr, which they claim gives 988fps in their test gun.

blacktalon (AT) black-talon.org

 

[rcmodel]

Thanks for the offer to help.

But I already have the PDF file hard copys for .38 & .357 I printed out when Speer still had it on thier website a year or two ago.

That is where I got the 5.2 Unique load I used the first time around.

It's a darn shame though that they advertize the bullet for "short barrel" use, then publish test data from a 6" S&W K-38!

rc

 

[Walkalong]

but I think the remaining 50 bullets are going over 5.5 grains Unique!

Based on a couple of 140 Gr loads I have tried, I believe it will need to as well.

If I could find some of those little gems, I would find out.

 

[wankerjake]

I finally found a box of Speer #4014 135 Gold Dot Short-Barrel bullets for sale.
Had to pay nearly $25 bucks for one box!

I acquired a box of these just today! I was thinking about loading in 357 cases and finding a load between 38+p and light 357mag. Looking at the data and your experience, I'm thinking around 6.0gr Unique or maybe 6.0gr Win231/HP-38. Good luck, let us know how 5.5gr turns out. I, at least, will be very interested to know.

 

[janobles14]

i only got hold of 20 of the 135 grainers but loaded them over 7.1 grains of HS-6. Chrono average of 978.5 fps with a deviation average of + or - 11 fps from a 4" barrel and 941 fps with almost same deviation from 2.5" barrel. no signs of over pressure and brass didnt stretch much at all. i didnt do any balistic testing though.

 

[jfh]

A couple of years ago, I loaded a bunch of these bullets (as well as the lead 140s). I found that

1) Unique was close to worthless, with big ESs, at 5.2 gr. (data sheet max)

2) the best powder for max loads in 38+P / 38CIP was True Blue, although

3) AA#5 really worked best overall.

This is all in 2-3" barrels. They were also tested in 4", but that data is not easily found in my head.

Anyone want some more info, I'll dig it out--feel free to post here, PM, or e-mail--

Jim H.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have data that replicates both the 135gr .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum Speer short barrel ammo but I have to dig it out to be sure. I used AA#5 for the .38 Special +P and Power Pistol for the .357 Magnum. I do remember the .357 Magnum load was 8.8gr Power Pistol and it gave the same velocity reported by Speer in a 2" barrel and more importantly, the same felt recoil. I'll have to find the AA#5 data on the .38 Special +P. (Jim is correct, the best results were with AA#5)

 

[jfh]

Yup, lotsa rounds fired by ArachAngelCD, me and others.

38 Special is AA#5, or True Blue.

357 is Power Pistol.

I tried to work with loads for use in a lightweight--and 357 high-end loads in a Scandium 357 is just too much. They can be OK in a 640, however.

Jim H.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

OK, I found the data...

I used 6.8gr AA#5 to replicate the 135gr Speer short barrel .38 Special +P load and it too has the same felt recoil as the original.

I also checked the above data I posted for the .357 Magnum 135gr load and it is 8.8gr Power Pistol for sure.

NOTE, neither load is at the MAX listed by Speer but those loads closely replicate the originals IMO. Speer lists a Max charge of 7.0gr AA#5 but I found that charge unnecessary to replicate the original. The .357 Magnum load is just of the starting charge but then again, the original is listed at only 990 fps from a 2" barrel. (.357 Magnum??)

 

[jfh]

and, a real sleeper powder for the 357-135GDSB is WSF. There is no real data available for it, IIRC--but it has low felt recoil, compared to PP's punch.

I think 6.8-7.0 gr. of #5 in the 38 Special case will get you reliably above 860 fps., which is about the min for the .357 GDSB 135 bullet expansion. Even when it's this cold--for sure with summer temps.

Biggest Power for 357 full-house with 158s, in 2" barrels, that I've found so far was Ramshot's silhouette. At max, bumping into 1125-1150 FPS from the 640 barrel.

Jim H.

 

[gamestalker]

I'm a big fan of hand loading for both the .357 mag. and the 38 spcl and have had to deal with the exact same circumstances as you. The first thing I want to state is, don't reuse bullets that have already been through your barrel once. Even if they look to be OK, remember that they have been compressed through the barrel which has drastically altered bullet length, diameter, and core characteristics. Because of those changes to the bullet, pressures are going ot be very unpredictable, possibly dangerous.
Power pistol is a good powder for stout +P loads. 6.0 to 6.4 grains will get inot the 1050 fps range. DO NOT DECREASE THIS DATA BELOW MINIMUM!
Next is AA#5 @ 6.6 to 7.0 grains. Around 1050 fps or so. DO NOT DECREASE BELOW MINIMUM DATA
AA#7 @ 7.8 to 8.2 grains. Around 1030 fps. DO NOT DECREASE BELOW MINIMUM DATA
HS-6 @ 6.8 to 7.2 grains. DO NOT DECREASE BELOW LISTED MINIMUM DATA
If you are going to continue using Unique use close to maximum charge of 5.2 grains or you are going to continue to get poor performance. But be aware that this faster burning powder is quick to increase pressures at higher charges unlike the slower powders above.
Also, make sure you are using a scale to measure your powder charges. Using a volmetric measuring device can be very inaccurate with such small charges of flake powders and small charges in general. If your not using a scale it may very be the cause of your performance issues.
Note, the data I provided is +P data and should only be used in a modern firearm designed for +P pressures. Be careful and make sure your charges don't get doubled when your working with those fast buring powders, it's an easy mistake to make that using slow powders will eliminate such mis-haps almost entirely.

 

[rcmodel]

The first thing I want to state is, don't reuse bullets that have already been through your barrel once.

Also, make sure you are using a scale to measure your powder charges.

Thanks for the tips!!

I'll have to try to remember those things for sure!

rc

 

[wankerjake]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

[Bush Pilot]

Thanks for the tips!!

I'll have to try to remember those things for sure!

rc

Stick around, you're learning

 

[gamestalker]

Speer data seems to contradict other data with reasoning to bullet deformation. I get especially concerned with their data when I'm loading with slow burning powders. They decrease the charges much lower than published warning statements from powder manufacturers. I load the GD according to powder manufacturers' recommendation and haven't had any issues with pressures or bullet deformation.

 

[JimKirk]

gamestalker .... please don't overload RCmodel with too much info.... he's kinda green at reloading!!







He is green from molding reloading info....




He is sorta like Al Gore .....he invented reloading!



Jimmy K

 

[janobles14]

and hes cranky! LOL

 

[Bush Pilot]

gamestalker .... please don't overload RCmodel with too much info.... he's kinda green at reloading!!







He is green from molding reloading info....




He is sorta like Al Gore .....he invented reloading!



Jimmy K

You're comparing him to Al Gore? That's gotta hurt.

 

[JimKirk]

Only in inventing stuff...I did say "sorta"

Would never our mentor like that

Jimmy K

 

[gamestalker]

I loaded a full magnum 158 grain G.D. today and tested it on a box full of tightly rolled up denim jeans in a 20" cardboard box, lined with a trash liner and then filled with water. Through the chronograph they were just under 1250fps. They went all the way through and stopped in the dirt. They performed exactly as Speer has described. I also tested 125 grain XTPHPs @ 1400 + fps and they as well went through and through and mushroomed with near perfection! Love it, can't get enough of that kind of testing.

 

[gamestalker]

Oh ya, I alomost forgot to mention the powder charge with those. I used 22.9 grains of W296 behind the 125s, and 17.0 with the 158s. That and H110 will deffinitely get it done!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used 22.9 grains of W296 behind the 125s, and 17.0 with the 158s. That and H110 will deffinitely get it done!

Ummm, you do realize both H110 and W296 are the same exact powders, right?