Never said nor implied that.
AR-15 Build
- Thread starter beehlebf
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For $700, I think the best route is to find the cheapest lower you can find ($60-$70) and buy a del-ton rifle kit of your liking. That would put you around $525 or so, plus any shipping. From there, you can add whatever bits or pieces you like. You could also sell the Del-ton BCG and buy a BCM BCG. Not sure it matters much but the bolt is one area where many feel quality makes a big difference. You wouldn't have much extra involved to swap from one to the other. At that point you would still have $100 or so left for magazines or sights.
There isn't a lot out there for $700. Will you get top tier parts? No. Will you get parts that will do 95% of what 95% of us would use the rifle for? Yes. I ran a Del-ton kit for a couple years. Only issue I ever had was with a magazine that was junk. Swap that mag out, and everything always ran well. I didn't run the gun hard, it was a range fun gun that saw hunting every once in a great while. It did great in that role. It shot most handloads into 1.5"-2" at 100 yards. Nothing spectacular, but certainly enough for any light hunting or plinking I had planned.
The first thing you have to do in this situation is determine what and how hard you plan to use the rifle. From there, you can determine if spending more money on given parts is worth it or not. Not everyone gets by on a budget rifle and not everyone will notice the difference between a $600 rifle and a $2600 rifle. Find your stipulations and buy accordingly.
There isn't a lot out there for $700. Will you get top tier parts? No. Will you get parts that will do 95% of what 95% of us would use the rifle for? Yes. I ran a Del-ton kit for a couple years. Only issue I ever had was with a magazine that was junk. Swap that mag out, and everything always ran well. I didn't run the gun hard, it was a range fun gun that saw hunting every once in a great while. It did great in that role. It shot most handloads into 1.5"-2" at 100 yards. Nothing spectacular, but certainly enough for any light hunting or plinking I had planned.
The first thing you have to do in this situation is determine what and how hard you plan to use the rifle. From there, you can determine if spending more money on given parts is worth it or not. Not everyone gets by on a budget rifle and not everyone will notice the difference between a $600 rifle and a $2600 rifle. Find your stipulations and buy accordingly.
Semyon Vasilii
Member
THE OP MEANT "WHAT IS THE HIGHEST QUALITY STUFF I CAN GET FOR MY BUDGET"
come on man... he didnt mean "where can i buy the top of the line rifle for $700.
he wanted to know what was THE BEST QUALITY RIFLE IN HIS BUDGET RANGE. which happened to be 700 bucks.
not the top of the line rifle which could be had for 700 bucks.
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
madcratebuilder
Member
SARCO is selling usgi, Colt made M16A2 kits for $475, you need to add a stripped lower and a magazine for a complete rifle. Well under your $700 budget. They have gi Colt made A1 kits for $499. These kits have new replacement barrels that well need to be parked.
Quentin
Member
Let's get this back on topic. Have you got any help for the OP? Maybe we can get him answer more questions about his intended uses for an AR and if he can get what he wants within his budget.
I am just getting started on AR's. I understand a 1/8 twist barrel is good for heaveier weight bullets, my question is , is there a downside to a 1/8 twist in lighter weight shells. I'm thinking I want a 20 inch barrel and I'm concidering stainless. Is there any downside to that other than weight. I bought a Rock River lower at a show yesterday, and will probably stay with RR for the upper. Also, does anyone have experience with the Wilde chamber.
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First, a 20" rifle is a great one to have. Today, many people like the 16" carbines. There are benefits to the shorter rifles, but the longer rifles have their pluses too. First, the cycling of the 20" rifles is smoother than the 16" rifles. It's hard to believe it makes much difference, but I can certainly feel it when shooting them side by side. Second, if you use iron sights, you get a longer sight radius, which makes aiming easier/more precise with the rifle length. You also tend to see less cycling issues with a rifle length.
I can't speak of the Wilde Chamber much. I used it for a while on one upper, but I've never shot anything but .223 cases out of any rifle so I really haven't seen how it handles 5.56.
For twist, there is always an up and a down to any twist rate. 1:8" is a good twist. It lets you shoot into the 70-80gr bullets and still is capable of shooting 55 or 62 gr bullets just as well. The down side is that if you plan to shoot 36-40gr bullets you may have to back down on velocity to keep them from coming apart. Not many people are looking to push those light bullets slower either. Some people claim you can over-stabilize lighter bullets like the 55gr or 62gr out of a 1:8" or 1:7". I've never seen it. I've seen some rifles shoot 55gr stuff well and others not so well, but I've seen it happen the other way too where even with a twist that stabilizes the heavier stuff some just wouldn't group well. Personally I put the over-stabilize idea as myth, until it can be proven by more than one guy saying his rifle doesn't shoot them well. Many claim the faster twists cause more friction and with that more heat. They say a faster twist barrel can be shot out faster than a slower twist and to only use as much twist as you need to stabilize the bullet you want to shoot. I'm not sure if this is a realistic issue or not, but it is something to consider.
If I were to buy a rifle length upper I wouldn't hesitate to buy it in 1:8" or 1:7" twist. Most of the drawback is not being able to shoot the ultra light stuff, which I'm ok with.
I'm not sure what style upper you are looking for but I might not go with RRA depending on what you are looking for. If you want one of their varmint uppers, I suggest you look at WOA instead. They make some great shooters for a very reasonable price. Many people have seen 1/2" groups at 100 yards from them.
If you want a standard rifle length setup BCM makes a decent upper for the price and they tend to not cut many important corners when it comes to making a reliable AR.
Really from there, for accurate rifles, RRA then offers good uppers with a few different options. I may also buy the parts individually if you are looking for a specific setup. I probably wouldn't use an RRA BCG, just because getting one that has been tested like the BCM runs identical money. I'd like the extra assurance that the BCM bolt gives.
Other than that, even if you go RRA, you should have an accurate fun rifle. Enjoy the thing.
I can't speak of the Wilde Chamber much. I used it for a while on one upper, but I've never shot anything but .223 cases out of any rifle so I really haven't seen how it handles 5.56.
For twist, there is always an up and a down to any twist rate. 1:8" is a good twist. It lets you shoot into the 70-80gr bullets and still is capable of shooting 55 or 62 gr bullets just as well. The down side is that if you plan to shoot 36-40gr bullets you may have to back down on velocity to keep them from coming apart. Not many people are looking to push those light bullets slower either. Some people claim you can over-stabilize lighter bullets like the 55gr or 62gr out of a 1:8" or 1:7". I've never seen it. I've seen some rifles shoot 55gr stuff well and others not so well, but I've seen it happen the other way too where even with a twist that stabilizes the heavier stuff some just wouldn't group well. Personally I put the over-stabilize idea as myth, until it can be proven by more than one guy saying his rifle doesn't shoot them well. Many claim the faster twists cause more friction and with that more heat. They say a faster twist barrel can be shot out faster than a slower twist and to only use as much twist as you need to stabilize the bullet you want to shoot. I'm not sure if this is a realistic issue or not, but it is something to consider.
If I were to buy a rifle length upper I wouldn't hesitate to buy it in 1:8" or 1:7" twist. Most of the drawback is not being able to shoot the ultra light stuff, which I'm ok with.
I'm not sure what style upper you are looking for but I might not go with RRA depending on what you are looking for. If you want one of their varmint uppers, I suggest you look at WOA instead. They make some great shooters for a very reasonable price. Many people have seen 1/2" groups at 100 yards from them.
If you want a standard rifle length setup BCM makes a decent upper for the price and they tend to not cut many important corners when it comes to making a reliable AR.
Really from there, for accurate rifles, RRA then offers good uppers with a few different options. I may also buy the parts individually if you are looking for a specific setup. I probably wouldn't use an RRA BCG, just because getting one that has been tested like the BCM runs identical money. I'd like the extra assurance that the BCM bolt gives.
Other than that, even if you go RRA, you should have an accurate fun rifle. Enjoy the thing.
I'll answer a lot of the questions above:
The 20" rifle shoots like a 16" with a mid-length gas system. The carbine length gas system was spec'd for the 14.5" military carbine barrel. The extra dwell of the longer barrel adds some harshness to the recoil. The biggest benefit of the longer barrel though is the increase of around 200fps possible.
As far as twist goes, if you only plan to load from the magazine, length of the loaded round limits the length of the bullet and the required twist rate. The longest bullet that will load to mag length is the Hornady 75gn match HP. The A-max is longer and will not fit in the magazine without seating it so deep that the ogive is inside the neck and the powder capacity is significantly reduced. The 77gn SMK can be loaded to mag length but is actually a shorter bullet than the 75gn Hornady. Both of my 1:9 barrels stabilize the Hornady bullets just fine, but I'm at 4,000ft. They may not work at sea level. 1:8 will comfortably stabilize up to the 80gn A-Max and SMK (which have to be single loaded) at any altitude.
Overstabilization is a myth. There are only two possible ill effects from spinning a bullet faster than necessary:
1) Very lightly constructed bullets might be torn apart. If you read the loading manual from the maker of a bullet in question, these are usually identified since both spinning them too fast and pushing them too fast (velocity wise) can cause them to come apart in flight. There are only a handful of bullets for which this is an issue and most of them are of older design.
2) If the bullet is not precisely made, inconsistencies in the thickness of the bullet jacket can cause the bullet center of gravity not to be along the bullet's geometric axis. Spinning a bullet that is out of balance in this manner causes it to wobble. The faster you spin it, the worse the wobble. This can lead to accuracy issue and is the basis for the "over-stabilization" myth. As long as you buy quality bullets when looking for best accuracy, this is a total non-issue.
The only real drawback to the faster twist barrels is that the faster twist build chamber pressure quicker and may limit the max safe load in the rifle. Usually this isn't much of an issue and certainly not a reason that I would consider a slower twist. Additional heat from increased friction is a spit in the ocean compared to the heat from propellant combustion and isn't going to affect barrel life at all.
On the subject of the Wylde chamber, its sole purpose in life is to provide a compromise between the pressure tolerant 5.56 NATO and more accurate .223 Rem chambers. It allows someone to safely fire 5.56 NATO ammo without sacrificing any appreciable accuracy when firing .223 ammo.
BCM makes an excellent mil-spec upper and their BCGs are as good as any and better than many.
Rock River is known to make very accurate uppers. They are not mil-spec, nor do they claim to be but they are not poorly manufactured either. Without paying a lot for an aftermarket trigger, the RRA 2-stage is about as good as it gets in an affordable rifle.
White Oak is also know for their accurate barrels and uppers. While not super expensive, they are more than the RRA uppers.
It all depends on what you want and what you want to spend.
The 20" rifle shoots like a 16" with a mid-length gas system. The carbine length gas system was spec'd for the 14.5" military carbine barrel. The extra dwell of the longer barrel adds some harshness to the recoil. The biggest benefit of the longer barrel though is the increase of around 200fps possible.
As far as twist goes, if you only plan to load from the magazine, length of the loaded round limits the length of the bullet and the required twist rate. The longest bullet that will load to mag length is the Hornady 75gn match HP. The A-max is longer and will not fit in the magazine without seating it so deep that the ogive is inside the neck and the powder capacity is significantly reduced. The 77gn SMK can be loaded to mag length but is actually a shorter bullet than the 75gn Hornady. Both of my 1:9 barrels stabilize the Hornady bullets just fine, but I'm at 4,000ft. They may not work at sea level. 1:8 will comfortably stabilize up to the 80gn A-Max and SMK (which have to be single loaded) at any altitude.
Overstabilization is a myth. There are only two possible ill effects from spinning a bullet faster than necessary:
1) Very lightly constructed bullets might be torn apart. If you read the loading manual from the maker of a bullet in question, these are usually identified since both spinning them too fast and pushing them too fast (velocity wise) can cause them to come apart in flight. There are only a handful of bullets for which this is an issue and most of them are of older design.
2) If the bullet is not precisely made, inconsistencies in the thickness of the bullet jacket can cause the bullet center of gravity not to be along the bullet's geometric axis. Spinning a bullet that is out of balance in this manner causes it to wobble. The faster you spin it, the worse the wobble. This can lead to accuracy issue and is the basis for the "over-stabilization" myth. As long as you buy quality bullets when looking for best accuracy, this is a total non-issue.
The only real drawback to the faster twist barrels is that the faster twist build chamber pressure quicker and may limit the max safe load in the rifle. Usually this isn't much of an issue and certainly not a reason that I would consider a slower twist. Additional heat from increased friction is a spit in the ocean compared to the heat from propellant combustion and isn't going to affect barrel life at all.
On the subject of the Wylde chamber, its sole purpose in life is to provide a compromise between the pressure tolerant 5.56 NATO and more accurate .223 Rem chambers. It allows someone to safely fire 5.56 NATO ammo without sacrificing any appreciable accuracy when firing .223 ammo.
BCM makes an excellent mil-spec upper and their BCGs are as good as any and better than many.
Rock River is known to make very accurate uppers. They are not mil-spec, nor do they claim to be but they are not poorly manufactured either. Without paying a lot for an aftermarket trigger, the RRA 2-stage is about as good as it gets in an affordable rifle.
White Oak is also know for their accurate barrels and uppers. While not super expensive, they are more than the RRA uppers.
It all depends on what you want and what you want to spend.
mokin
Member
Lots of good manufacturers are named here. I checked most of them out while I was shopping for my build. I found the AR-15 build features on Brownelle's site very helpful. They have a downloadable list of all the parts you need--especially for me as I didn't buy all my parts at once. Only $100.00-$150.00 at a time over the course of seven or eight months. I also liked the "How to Build" series of videos on the website. To be fair, despite all the good stuff I've said about Brownelle's, I didn't do much business with them. Better deals to be had elsewhere. Check out AR15.com. Lots of good advice there.
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