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Are expensive 1911's range toys or serious CCW guns?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by dores893, Jul 9, 2019.

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  1. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Fair enough. I quoted the wrong guy then.
     
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  2. 5-SHOTS

    5-SHOTS Member

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    Best post of the thread. Period.
     
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  3. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    I carried and used a 1911 for over 40 years. Dropping the safety on the draw is ingrained muscle memory. The 1911 I'm carrying now has a titanium firing pin. It's drop safe.

    You're talking about experience that you lack and will probably never have.
     
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  4. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Like a hammer.

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    Everything it needs - nothin' it don't.




    GR
     
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  5. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Right, achieving a proper firing grip prohibits the safety being on for me. If the gun is on target the safety is down and my thumb is on it by grip and reflex, zero thinking or extra motion required
     
  6. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Criticism of the 1911 safety can get some prickly responses from 1911 owners. I have seen at least one Delta Force type character bump the safety to "ON" in one of those TV shooting shows. It really screwed up his competition time, it might have been worse had someone been shooting at him while he puzzled out why his pistol was not going bang.

    The early models of the 1911 did not have a safety, the safety was only put on because the horse cavalry needed a way to make the pistol safe with one hand, while their mount went bonkers. You can imagine compulsively grabbing your pistol as your horse jumped and rolled. Even with the safety, the pistol was designed to be carried, round in the chamber, hammer down.

    How do you think John Browning carried this pistol? Empty chamber?

    usZsCzE.jpg

    It was only because of a number of accidental discharges by owners lowering the hammer, that the military SOP became round in chamber, safety on, pistol in flap holster. The military still had accidental discharges and continued to alter the carry SOP. I have read accounts of veterans that by the time you get to Vietnam, you were not allowed to put a magazine in the pistol till you were on the Huey, and you were not allowed to chamber a round till you were on the ground in the drop zone.

    I did go through a Texas Ranger museum and the pictures of Rangers on horses showed Rangers were carrying 1911's with the hammer down, in open top holsters. The holsters had retention straps. I assume they went condition 2 and were confident they could thumb cock the thing in time for whatever problem they encountered.

    But cocked and locked became the standard configuration for the quick draw types and the quick draw games that evolved post WW2. Just watch the Cowboy shows of the time, the fastest man to clear leather always wins. Maybe it will, if life is a Cowboy show. Cocked and locked has developed its own narrative, its own origin story, and it is dogma to some. I feel free to be an apostate, and for those who don't feel comfortable carrying a pistol cocked and unlocked, as those safeties do bump off, well, there is more than one of you.
     
  7. 5-SHOTS

    5-SHOTS Member

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    Your self-proclaimed forty-year experience means nothing to me, but as far as I'm concerned you can continue to carry your titanium-firing-pin-drop-safe-cocked-and-locked 1911 for another forty years and beyond.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  8. Jeff H

    Jeff H Member

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    I love my 1911s, I have two at the moment, but I don't train with them for CCW; therefore, I don't carry them. For me, they are range toys and home defense guns only, they are just too big and bulky. I have far smaller, lighter and higher round count guns that I carry.
     
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  9. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    I think this has something to do with why US police forces stuck with double-action revolvers for so long. Now I will admit that I'm a "revolver guy" but I don't pine for the days and I actually think police would have been better off switching to automatics much earlier than they did in the US. I don't think of police as gun experts (although there are some among them), and instead I think of the majority of US police over the course of the 20th century to be marginally competent and often inept in firearms handling. We have countless historical and modern-day examples testifying to this fact. This isn't to ridicule police, but the fact is that firearms handling and shooting are a martial art that takes extensive training, intense practice, and rigorous discipline to perform dependably well under stress. There are few people that can do it and the intersection of this group with the group of people who can do excellent police work is even smaller. We can almost certainly say the same thing about civilians who carry. Now, none of this is to say that they shouldn't carry, but that scarcely would anyone want to assume the liability for someone else who carries. But that's just what police agencies must expect to do. This is no doubt why they favored the double-action revolver and the double-action automatic. I believe that most of the early adopters of striker-fired guns like the Glock did so because they understood it to function like a double-action only.

    Going back to the early part of the 20th century, police in the US could have adopted the 1911. They could have seen the advantages of the single-action trigger that more officers would have been successful with. They could have seen the advantages of magazine reloads, an advantage that nobody today would argue is anything less than absolutely vital. Going back to the days of dump pouches would simply be scandalous, and yet the technology that replaces them today is more than 100 years old. So really, the problem was they couldn't justify arming officers with the 1911 because they would be forced to dictate condition 1, 2 or 3 carry, and all of these choices would put officers at risk of a shooter-induced malfunction or an unintentional discharge. Indeed, the adoption of automatics by US police was effectively delayed until the double-action automatics and the striker-actions which were initially perceived as double-action came on the market. For a while, we even saw the striker guns offered with heavy double-action only and then lighter "LEM" triggers until most recently we have the widespread acceptance of triggers with a little bit of take-up and then no more weight than a SA 1911 trigger to break.
     
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  10. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    I go back to the summer of 1964 at Paris Island SC-MCRD familiarization firing of the 1911A1 followed by the following year in Viet-Nam with the age old lesson learned by previous generations the 1911A1 is a supplement to the primary rifle.

    With that said, I've probably fired enough 45ACP at the 25 & 50 yard lines to fill a 55Gal drum with the empty cases. (Yes that's a lot of empties but it makes for a good story).

    The high dollar 1911 series pistols are what they are and part of that to a degree is status symbol's for individuals with a certain amount of brag thus a certain amount of Walter Mitty factored in also.

    Tom Givens author of Fighting Smarter A Practical Guide For Surviving Violent Confrontations Chapter 13 Training Priorities provides informative information engagement distances of shooting distances which are close extremely close.

    With that said reasonable accuracy not extreme accuracy seems to be reasonable thus your moderately priced 1911 series pistols would appear to be more than adequate for the purposes of self-defense.

    As for myself I have examples of 1911 series pistols but my EDC is a S&W Shield 9X19mm.
     
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  11. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Interesting, and not training with them for CCW leaves you feeling OK with them for HD? I would think you'd still want to train them for HD as well?

    I like to keep my HD and CCW guns consistent for consistencies sake.
     
  12. rskent

    rskent Member

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    Are you saying that you drop the safety on the draw? And at that point, your gun is still drop safe?

    Help me out here sir, because I don’t see how that’s possible.
     
  13. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I can try.

    Many folk with 1911 disengage the safety on the draw when getting their proper grip, some on the 45 degree angle, I do right as the sights hit the target. It's just a reflex as part of coming up on target, not a separate thought or action.

    The second part with drop safe is, the greatest chance of a dropped 1911 going off is a solid nose down hit on the barrel pushing the firing pin forward through inertia. Even with the thumb safety off, the grip safety will keep the hammer back on a drop. A titanium firing pin combined with a stronger spring will aleviate the chance of inertia driving the pin forward on a drop because the lighter titanium pin cannot overcome the spring strength with inertia and gravity alone.

    It is the standard drop safe method without a firing pin block (like the series 80 Colt, or Kimbers)
     
  14. rskent

    rskent Member

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    I guess this is the part that I question. The grip safety keeps the trigger from being pressed, not the sear from bouncing out from under the hammer hooks if the gun hits the ground.

    In the end it’s up to the individual what they do, and how they feel about what they do. Me, with a 1911, its on target safety off. Off target safety on. Please do as you wish.
     
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  15. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    Gunsight's training doctrine for 1911s is to disengage the safety on the "rotate" phase of the drawstroke (count three).

    Likewise, the safety is re-engaged during the reholster as the muzzle direction rotates from forward to down.

    Those who only disengage the safety when the gun is extended and sights are on target may have some problems engaging a target at contact distance from a retention position.

     
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  16. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    What exactly are owners day dreamers about?
     
  17. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Just a bit of slight … a belief that those of us that own higher-end 1911s have them only for the snob appeal and an apparent desire to be like Sergeant York or the Bruce Willis character in the flick "Last Man Standing." As always on the internet, there are many who don't know what they don't know.
     
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  18. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Take a look at the holster in post 108. The strap is across the grip safety. If the safety bumps to the ready position and anything presses on the grip safety (such as a fat roll) then all you have between a pending hole in your butt is that trigger.

    I have heard there are more accidental discharges with the Glock type trigger than any other, shooters hook the finger into the trigger guard and manage to bump the trigger withdrawing the pistol from the holster, or, where ever the pistol resides. I have seen Utube videos of guys shooting themselves playing quick draw with their 1911's.

    I can tell you that I have had lots of accidental discharges with my smallbore prone rifles. Really makes me leery of trusting triggers alone. Just had a couple in a Regional with this rifle. The wind changed, needed to adjust the windage knob, the rifle has an 8 ounce trigger, and the fourth finger somehow got in the trigger guard and bumped the trigger. The round went downrange into the dirt.

    zG314lu.jpg

    This Anschutz has a wonderful set trigger. You set the thing and final release, I can't measure the final release as my trigger gauge releases the trigger. The pull weight is just at the level of sensitivity. And there have been times when I am putting my finger in the trigger guard, moving towards the trigger, and I touch it and it goes off. I have to be careful to approach the trigger with the sights off the target. Shot at least one eight and a five. And, I have loaded the gun, moved the hand down, and a finger snagged in the trigger guard, touching the trigger.

    nDcGfXE.jpg

    For a self defense gun, something I have to live with and carry, I want more protection than a single action, or even, a Glock type trigger. A nice heavy double action pull is OK.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  19. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    My guess would be they dream of the scenarios where the smidge better accuracy afforded to a high end 1911 may come into play.
     
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  20. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    LOL. that's a joke correct?
     
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  21. Jack Ryan

    Jack Ryan Member

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    If you've convinced your self, thats all that matters.
     
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  22. rskent

    rskent Member

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    What ever works for you tickles me to death. And if you like a heavy double action trigger, all the best. For myself, double action triggers don’t work as well. And heavy double action triggers don’t work at all.

    Side note:
    Nice rifles.
    In your mind, is there a real difference in accuracy between a rifle with an 8 oz trigger and say a 2 lb. trigger, all else being equal?
     
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  23. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    The thumb safety has nearly nothing to do with "drop-safetyness".

    Drop safety with the 1911 has to do with the inertial firing pin. A low mass titanium firing pin with an extra power firing pin spring can help in a muzzle drop, or you can just get a 1911 with a firing pin safety. Whether the thumb safety is engaged or not, has no bearing on a non-firing pin safety equipped 1911 firing if dropped on the muzzle.
     
  24. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Not in the inherent accuracy of the rifle, but my scores are always higher with the set trigger. As a prone shooter I have to contend with heart beat and heat stress. As I get hot, the heart beat goes up, and that pulse is reflected in rifle movement. I can only slow the heart beat down for very short periods, sometimes due to heat stress, not at all. In the dwell period of a slowed heart beat, all I have to do with the set trigger is touch it. I don't have to build up pressure, which takes time. I can see the crosshairs in or on the X ring and touch off the set trigger without delay or much of any movement of the rifle. My X counts are higher and I shoot more tens.

    These targets are in 60 to 70 F weather, and firing in the shade.

    cr6tM13.jpg

    wV0LqXB.jpg

    This is two 100 yard F Class 22lr targets, the shooter's rifle is on a rest and sandbags. He does not have to contend with a pulse, and you would expect a much tighter group just from that alone. I have not played with his trigger, but it is light. A light trigger means there is less movement of the rifle to control when the trigger breaks.

    S17KH3z.jpg
     
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  25. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Well I guess they could dream that Mr BG will be so impressed with the beauty of their CCW piece that the BG will just give up, or that their $3500 1911 is actually more reliable than the many $500 duty weapons avaliable. Of course IMHO those dreams ar more fitting to One flew over the cockoo's nest than Walter Mitty.
     
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