Are revolvers obsolete for police work?

[mcb]

BTW guys, I think it's safe to say that when it comes to revolvers we're pretty much talking .357 mag. here.

We already have a good toasty discussion going no need to throw that can of kerosene on our little camp fire...

If I was forced to be a law enforcement officer and was forced to carry a revolver I would probably pick any other cartridge except 357 Magnum... but we already did that thread just week or two ago....

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

If I was forced to be a law enforcement officer and was forced to carry a revolver I would probably pick any other cartridge except 357 Magnum

Same here, I'd want it to be the same cartridge as my sub-machine gun.

 

[golden]

When I started in law enforcement, the standard issue handgun was a S&W model 13 with 3 inch barrel using 110 grain .357 magnum hollow point ammo.

As to the question of whether a revolver can cut it as a police issue weapon, I would say, most of the time, NO!
Most cops are not gun people, who go to the range on their own, several times a month or shoot in competition. I work with some wonderful, talented people, but they are average shots and only shoot when they qualify. For 99 percent of the time, an officer's knowledge will be more important than what gun they carry, how well they shoot it or their physical techniques.

I know that the statistics say you only need a couple of shots, but statistics are an average, which is some case includes suicides. If you are in a fight and fire just one or two shots, great. What happens when you pull up to a robbery, bar fight, are enforcing a warrant or an active domestic incident and there are multiple suspects/participants? If you need only 2 shots, figure you should have at least 4 rounds to be safe, but then multiply that by the possibility of more than one opponent. For two, you need at least 8 rounds, most revolvers are now out of the picture. If you are in a confusing, group action, you may need a lot more.

I am not against revolvers, I like and shoot them often. I also keep them for home defense, along with a 9 m.m. or .40 S&W semi-auto, but for law enforcement, the situation is different.

Oh, did you notice how few revolver have light rails and night sights. IN MY OPINION, light rails are a great option and night sights are mandatory. A bedroom pistol with a light means YOU ALWAYS HAVE A LIGHT WHEN NEEDED. It is not something you will forget and have to go back for. If you have night sights, you can more easily find that pistol in the dark when you just woke up and are probably a little disoriented.

LEO shooting skill is the reason for going back to the 9m.m. instead of the .40 caliber. If you are going to shoot at least 1200 rounds a year, at two month intervals and are not recoil adverse, then you can stick with the .40 cal.
My agency bought the .40 caliber over 2 decades ago. We used a hard recoiling, very powerful load with a 155 grain bullet at 1200 fps in our "BIG" BERETTA 96D pistols. When we switched over to the H&K P2000, after wearing out our BERETTA'S in only10 years, we switched to a lighter recoiling 135 grain load at about the same velocity. Now we have gone to the 180 grain HST load. A good load, but what advantage does it have over a +P 9m.m. HST?
It has already been announced that we will go back to the 9m.m. for our next service pistol.

If you work road patrol or an enforcement unit that is likely to be in a gun fight, the advantages of a semi-auto are just too great. That goes even for a single stack 9m.m. The 9m.m. can reach a good level of power with premium bullets and +P loadings, a sort of low end .357 magnum. Now I notice that some of the top performing .357 magnum loads, are LOWERING their velocity to the 1200 fps range that is the norm for +P 9m.m. loads. I think it is because there is a recognition that this is the level of recoil most LEO'S can handle and shoot well. You can include premium loads in the .40 S&W in this group, loads like the FEDERAL HST and SPEER GOLD DOT.
More power, generally means more recoil, which lowers scores.

Their is the always present problem of reloading under pressure. That is one reason that I mentioned competition shooting. It is just a lot easier to reload or do a tactical reload (when you still have a few rounds in the magazine, but want to replace it with a full magazine. That is really not practical with a revolver in a gun fight.

If you are in a small, suburban department with low crime and a low likelihood of a serious threat, then a revolver is still up to snuff, but you will not find any major department or federal agency still issuing a revolver as the primary weapon.

Just my experience,

Jim

 

[mcb]

Same here, I'd want it to be the same cartridge as my sub-machine gun.

For sure, even John McClane in the 80's knew the importance of round compatibility between your side-arm and sub-machine-gun.

 

[Tallball]

I might say "obsolescent" rather than obsolete.

 

[herrwalther]

I only saw one revolver when working with the Sheriff's office for 2 years. It was with our department transport officer who would transfer inmates between various county and state detention facilities. Very "old school" type guy to match his firearm. From the looks of the outline, it was a S&W 686 in 3 or 4" barrel or something in that size category. He carried his revolver in a belt slide leather holster with a miniature version of his badge in the leather.

 

[labnoti]

... but once you get guys trying to climb in and out of cars all day with the damn things, reality starts to suck. Patrol sling an MP5 then get in and out of your car a few times. And remember to make sure you aren't still wearing it while driving... don't want that steering wheel pushing it through your sternum if you get in a wreck. ....

I don't know, the MP5 is pretty old-school at this point. This is an MP7:



I don't see that being so onerous that it's not even an option on the table. Besides the MP7, there are also the FN P90 (the SBR version) and the recent SIG's like MPX, Beretta PMX etc. That's not a lot of trade-off when you get select-fire capability and 40 or 50 round magazines instead of having to do three "tactical reloads" with semi-auto the only option.

 

[labnoti]

Here's John with an Uzi and a standard duty pistol to demonstrate:

 

[Deanimator]

I would argue that if police are not going to be properly trained, especially with regard to fundamental safety practices, DAO revolvers are VASTLY preferable to semi-auto pistols for police use.

I can't help but think that if the NYPD still carried S&W Model 10s, Akai Gurley would still be alive.

 

[Drail]

A buzz gun fired from a helo? By a cop who appears to not even be strapped in? With the buttstock tucked into his cheekbone? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

This is an MP7:

Congratulations on destroying your whole point by posting a gun with a 20 round magazine... a grand total of one more round than my sidearm has with the added nasty side effect of what the hell do you do with it while not holding it in your hands. You know, the 99% of police work. I have a holster to keep my sidearm in when it's not in use. What's your plan? A big piece of kydex that rides on the belt? Oh I know, maybe you can balance it out on the other side with another piece of kydex to hold some more ammunition that gets you up to your 50 round standard. Which.. BTW... of all the guns you listed, only the P90 meets your 50 round requirement. So, uh... oops, there goes your argument again.

And since we are playing the "MP5 is old hat" game, the SIG MPX and Beretta PMX are the same size as the MP5K. Ironically, the MP7.. bigger than the MP5K.

I mean, did you even look these things up before posting?

If you do nothing else, next post, answer what police officers are supposed to do with the gun for the 99% of their shifts they aren't holding them in their hands.

 

[mcb]

I would argue that if police are not going to be properly trained, especially with regard to fundamental safety practices, DAO revolvers are VASTLY preferable to semi-auto pistols for police use.

I can't help but think that if the NYPD still carried S&W Model 10s, Akai Gurley would still be alive.

There is no amount/type of training that will make a officer using a S&W model 10 as effective as an officer with a similar amount of training using a Glock 17 or similar high capacity semi-auto service pistol. Three times the capacity; faster, easier, less fumble-prone, reloads; and easier to shoot, fast and accurate. Revolvers no longer give any reliability advantage (haven't in 30+ years but myths die hard in the firearms community). The 9mm offers equal or better terminal ballistics as the 38/357 in a two legged critter context. The revolver has no significant techno-logic advantage over a modern semi-auto service pistol and several liabilities enumerated above.

I am not an officer nor would I want to be one. They do a thankless job and for that I respect them but I could never do it. I have spent years shooting revolvers and semi-autos in IDPA and USPSA competition (I am a B-class Revolver, Limited-10, Production shooter). Yes those are games/sports not real world training but one thing that game/sport does (beyond testing the gun handling and shooting skills of the competitors) is test the hardware to its limit. If a particular handgun has a weakness those sports will find it and the competitor will fix it or move away from it. If a particular handgun gives an advantage they will flock to it and exploit it as much as possible. As much fun as I have shooting a revolver in those sports and bragging about using the noble round gun to trounce the filthy bottom feeders when you really look at the scores you realize the guys with equal or greater skill running semi-autos just smoked your revolver score.

ie the last USPSA match I shot with a Revolver in last summer I took 10th place of 47 competitors as the only schmuck with hit foot in a bucket running a revolver ( with the 627 rig I posted a picture of up thread) that seems pretty darn good. I beat 37 guys with semi-autos with my lowly revolver. Except when you really look at the guys near the top and you see how far behind the leaders you are. Compared to the guy that won the carry optics division that match and over six stages I was less than 80% of his score and my total elapsed time was 60% longer than his. We shot 6 stages and ~150 rds fired. I averaged slightly faster than 1 round/second including any reloads on the clock of which I had ~15 reloads, my total elapsed time was 140.45 seconds. The winner of carry optics manage to shoot roughly the same number of rounds in 88.37 seconds (nearly 1.7 rds/sec) and only required~8 reloads. I will repeat there is no way for similar amount of training can a revolver compete with a semi-auto pistol in the ability to put rounds on target when its needed.

WRT Akai Gurley I think the actions of one negligent officer is not proper justification for hamstring all officers. If it was truly an negligent discharge no doubt that particular officer would have been negligent with a revolver also, enough said on that.

-totally rambling

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I would argue that if police are not going to be properly trained, especially with regard to fundamental safety practices, DAO revolvers are VASTLY preferable to semi-auto pistols for police use.

I can't help but think that if the NYPD still carried S&W Model 10s, Akai Gurley would still be alive.

I think it would have been different if the officer had kept him finger off the trigger until he intended to fire his weapon. The problem was not the gun.

 

[labnoti]

Congratulations on destroying your whole point by posting a gun with a 20 round magazine... a grand total of one more round than my sidearm has with the added nasty side effect of what the hell do you do with it while not holding it in your hands. You know, the 99% of police work. I have a holster to keep my sidearm in when it's not in use. What's your plan? A big piece of kydex that rides on the belt? Oh I know, maybe you can balance it out on the other side with another piece of kydex to hold some more ammunition that gets you up to your 50 round standard. Which.. BTW... of all the guns you listed, only the P90 meets your 50 round requirement. So, uh... oops, there goes your argument again.

And since we are playing the "MP5 is old hat" game, the SIG MPX and Beretta PMX are the same size as the MP5K. Ironically, the MP7.. bigger than the MP5K.

I mean, did you even look these things up before posting?

If you do nothing else, next post, answer what police officers are supposed to do with the gun for the 99% of their shifts they aren't holding them in their hands.

I never made a 50 round requirement, I just claimed one of the capabilities of submachine guns in general. The P90 does do that. MP7's are available with 20, 30 and 40 round magazines. Uzi's can take 40 and 50 round magazines. I didn't list Uzis but posted a video of one instead. The MPX and PMX are 30 rounds. That's still double the magazine capacity of .40 S&W duty pistols and they are select-fire. I don't know why you feel a need to defend the MP5 just because I said it was old-school because of its 1960's genesis. The uzi is even older, but still a good one and I have nothing against the MP5 but maybe it doesn't do all the things you're asking for like riding in a vehicle. The MP5K would be better for that indeed. The MP5 also comes with 40 round magazines and there is a 100 round drum too. I also think that if more people carried submachine guns, there would be more interest in newer designs that would solve a lot of the problems for EDC.

Police around the world use submachine guns on patrol every day. They don't have all the problems you describe. These are in Sweden:

 

[Riomouse911]

Are revolvers now obsolete for on duty law enforcement use?

Yes. Big city, small suburban, rural, highway patrol, SWAT, etc., the duty revolvers time has gone.

I refuse to engage trolls, so I’ll stop here.

Stay safe!

 

[GunnyUSMC]

If you would like to know what officers are up against in my city, just search, Thuggin and lovin it 2 .
Then tell me if you want to answer calls dealing with the guys in the video with a revolver and thre3 speed loaders.
WARNING VIDEO HAS A LOT OF CURSING. NOT TO BE WATCHED BY CHILDREN OR SNOWFLAKES.

 

[labnoti]

There are lots of slings that work for shoulder carry, chest carry, back carry, etc. Where do you think this guy drew his Uzi from?

 

[labnoti]

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I never made a 50 round requirement, I just claimed one of the capabilities of submachine guns in general. The P90 does do that. MP7's are available with 20, 30 and 40 round magazines. Uzi's can take 40 and 50 round magazines. I didn't list Uzis but posted a video of one instead. The MPX and PMX are 30 rounds. That's still double the magazine capacity of .40 S&W duty pistols and they are select-fire. I don't know why you feel a need to defend the MP5 just because I said it was old-school because of its 1960's genesis. The uzi is even older, but still a good one and I have nothing against the MP5 but maybe it doesn't do all the things you're asking for like riding in a vehicle. The MP5K would be better for that indeed. The MP5 also comes with 40 round magazines and there is a 100 round drum too. I also think that if more people carried submachine guns, there would be more interest in newer designs that would solve a lot of the problems for EDC.

Police around the world use submachine guns on patrol every day. They don't have all the problems you describe. These are in Sweden:

View attachment 826164

You do realize that the officers in other countries that are seen carrying sub guns are not the ones that are answering domestic and standard police calls. The are on special assignment and don’t deal with regular police calls.
Try getting into a fight with a sub gun hanging from your shoulder. That would be another can of worms in weapon retention.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

There realistically wasn’t a good reason to go away from them with the exception of maintenance being a bit more complicated. Popularity of bottom feeders drove the price down so there is a slight benefit on cost now to stay with a semiauto pistol.

That said.....

There is not a single thing a service revolver can do that a semiauto pistol can’t do. Good ammo in a 9mm or 40sw will do just as good as a .357 mag if it comes down to that. Realistically, other revolver calibers are out because 38 is weaker and weighs (in felt weight) no less than .357. 44mag is too big, 41 mag is too expensive, 327 is too small.

The big question for me is why they feel a need for 874 rounds of ammo on a belt to weigh them down and cause back problems. A single stack pistol will be thinner, lighter, and will be just as effective. Think Glock 19 profile at 2/3 thickness holding about 9 rds. That officer is carrying less weight and it’s easier to get in and out of the cruiser with the reduced bulk. But I’m not in LE and I don’t make those decisions. Just don’t let the beurocrats involved find out that there are snail mags for duty guns or the beat cops will be carrying 3 of those on their belt and adding another 4 pounds to what they already drag around.

You make a great point about ammo. While wheel guns and even semi auto pistols, for the most part, have not changed much over the years, the ammo has. It's much, much better than the ammo made 20 years ago. So, LE departments going back to 9mm can justify the switch back to 9mm with a few important reasons: 9mm ammo is much better today than it was 20 years ago. Training with 9mm ammo is probably cheaper than .40s&w or .45. Finally, it's always nice to have more rounds than less and you can find a variety of semi-auto pistols with high capacity magazines in 9mm.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

not sure how I would manage a one handed speed-loader reload with a revolver?

Skip to the 3-minute mark.

 

[mcb]

Skip to the 3-minute mark.

Wow that looks awkward compared to a similar drill with a semi-auto, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to survive, but dang... And it still looks much slower and more prone to failure than a one handed semi-auto reload. So going back to the revolver and ballistic shield scenarios that motivated my one handed reload question. Why again would I want to use a revolver with only 6-8 shot before I am required to reload compared to 16+ rounds in a semi-auto before a reload is required?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I never made a 50 round requirement

You didn't what? You didn't write this?

Nowadays, most cops carry close to 50 rounds on their person at all times. The idea that it should be in three or four magazines is just as stupid as the idea that they should only have 6 rounds in the gun and some speedloaders or dump pouches. Bottom line: Submachine gun with 50 round magazines.

Oh.. well.. I mean... Geesh.. Right there in your own words: "BOTTOM LINE: SUBMACHINE GUN WITH 50 ROUND MAGAZINES"

Uzi's can take 40 and 50 round magazines.

50 round magazines were never UZI issue. They were aftermarket and they were garbage. There is a reason that the largest magazine issued with UZI was 32 rounds. FYI: You can get a 50 round Glock magazine too (of course no one on duty is ever going to use one for reasons that are obvious to cops, but which I will explain later in the post anyways)... so, again, your argument is terrible.

The MPX and PMX are 30 rounds. That's still double the magazine capacity of .40 S&W duty pistols

You just compared the capacity of two 9mm guns to a .40... Seriously, how can you be this bad at forming arguments? You know what else, most 9mm handguns have more capacity than the average .45 handgun. Shock and gasp.

I don't know why you feel a need to defend the MP5

I what? Where did you get the idea that I'm defending the MP5? I'm using it as a generic SMG size since HINT: there are still a lot of them out there and *SHOCK* even more modern SMGs tend to be generally the same size. That's because they kind of have to be because of this thing called Matter. If you want a barrel of X length, and a magazine capacity of X, and etc etc, things tend to be able to get only so small. You may shave a few mm off of a dimension, but unless you do something radical (P90) you aren't getting much smaller

I also think that if more people carried submachine guns, there would be more interest in newer designs that would solve a lot of the problems for EDC.

More interest in new designs? What, like the Sig MPX, Beretta PMX, Kriss Vector or CZ Scorpion EVO. All three of those are less than a decade old.

Police around the world use submachine guns on patrol every day. They don't have all the problems you describe. These are in Sweden:

Thank you for precisely proving my point. As I said earlier:

Yes, subguns work well for special duty assignments, but once you get guys trying to climb in and out of cars all day with the damn things, reality starts to suck.

So, you know, thanks for proving my point. Now, instead of picking one picture in particular off of Google and hoping that we are too stupid to fall for it, Google "Swedish Police" and look at the pictures. The vast majority of them have no SMGs in sight. You know why? Because the Swedish police don't carry SMGs as a matter of daily routine. It's almost like they come out for

special duty assignments

. You know, just like in the US.

Also, a few things about your picture:

1) Note both officers are still carrying sidearms, so LOL.
2) MP5s HAHA, OMG, wow... this is too much. LOL See, that's why I use the MP5 as the generic SMG. They are everywhere.

There are lots of slings that work for shoulder carry, chest carry, back carry, etc.

Ah, so, the conversation has swung back to slings are okay. Good to know.. because, you know, slings were right out for a bit. Okay, cool.. slings. Now look at that under the shoulder rig in the third picture and tell me how any officer is supposed to bring that weapon into action while seated in a car. Don't worry, it's a trap question. The officer can't, because the firearm is seat belted in. Of course, there is added hilarity for your suggested 40 round magazine sticking out of the bottom of the MP7 in a vertical shoulder rig... which pushes the gun well off the seat back and makes it interfere with the drivers arms. Also, I hope you don't have any left handed officers as that sling would actually block the ejection port on the MP7 and cause it to malf if fired.

Remember when you said that no law enforcement experience was needed in this conversation? Yeah, well, anyone with any time in a cruiser would have spotted those little problems right away.

Also, bonus LOLs for the blue painted airsoft MP7 on one side and imitation Glock mags on the other. Also, pretty sure that's an airsoft rig...

Where do you think this guy drew his Uzi from?

Agent Wanko had his Uzi in a briefcase.

 

[LRDGCO]

I was a volunteer fireman, so it's a hard thing to express respect for professional donut gourmands.

But joking aside, and while expressing legitimate respect for the police, many would admit themselves that vast numbers of police are so insufficiently proficient with their firearms that they really ought not be armed at all. Recognizing that fact, 15 plus rounds of lower recoil 9mm in a lower cost, very heavy triggered D/A semi-auto almost certainly represents the best cost-effective approach from a utilitarian perspective. So, as someone rather early on in the thread rather eloquently noted, revolvers are bureaucratically obsolete for the police rank and file.

 

[labnoti]

What's your beef with me man? Why do you want to nit pick my statements here?

You didn't what? You didn't write this?



Oh.. well.. I mean... Geesh.. Right there in your own words: "BOTTOM LINE: SUBMACHINE GUN WITH 50 ROUND MAGAZINES"

How is that a requirement? I never said "required" "must" "or need". I just offered a solution. I'm sorry you read into that I was requiring you to have 50 rounds.

You just compared the capacity of two 9mm guns to a .40... Seriously, how can you be this bad at forming arguments? You know what else, most 9mm handguns have more capacity than the average .45 handgun. Shock and gasp.

With a 6.5 or 8 inch barrel, the effectiveness of 9mm is meaningfully improved over a 4.5 inch pistol. But is this really something we need to argue over? How did I get you so worked up over something like this?


You do realize that I baited the OP with the comments about the submachine gun? Or did you miss that? See post #69 and #71. Or I can keep trolling.