Are we doing all we can in Iraq? Not so sure...

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Drjones

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I have had concerns that we are not giving Iraq everything we have and are capable of giving.

This article brings up many points.

What do you think?

EDIT: Or do you think perhaps we are purposely holding back?

If so, WHY would we do this? It doesn't seem to be working....



Analysis: Shock and Worry
Christopher Ruddy
Monday, March 24, 2003

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...23/134629.shtml

Shock and yawn – that’s probably the real reaction to the American aerial attack the world is witnessing live on television.
With the war for Iraqi liberation just days under way, we have been told of “mass surrenders,†“decapitation of the leadership,†a “crumbling regime†and so on.

But the Iraqis don’t see it that way.

After “shock and awe†– and the expenditure of billions of dollars of cruise missiles and bombs (each cruise missile costs $500,000 to $1 million) – the net result is that we have bombed many buildings that were evacuated weeks ago.

Yesterday a friend of mine said, “My god, the missiles are more valuable than the buildings they are destroying.â€

Meanwhile, as we saw on “Meet the Press,†the Defense Ministry in Baghdad has yet to be hit. In fact, the Iraqi military still gives briefings there.

The presumed reason, Andrea Mitchell says, is that we are secretly talking to high-ranking military personnel there. We wouldn’t want to disturb their routine.

The Iraqi vice president is holding press conferences. The foreign minister just left the country for a conference. Saddam Hussein is depicted regularly on Iraqi TV.

(No, we haven’t bothered to knock out Iraqi TV. For some reason, we would still like Iraqis to think Saddam is still in charge, even though our Pentagon believes he may be dead.)

Press leaks before the war released the details of America’s secret plan – dubbed “Shock and Awe†– a massive, precision-guided aerial bombardment that would lead to the quick unraveling of the Iraqi regime.

So far, the plan has not worked.

In fact, if there is any “awe†it’s the spectacle of the U.S. expending billions of dollars on empty buildings.

Life goes on as usual in Baghdad, and at night America taxpayers shell out for a fireworks show better than one Grucci can offer up.

No doubt the Iraqis sit on their rooftops at night alongside the world press, drinking camel juice and watching the show.

In the morning life goes on, everything works: telephones, TV, electricity, cars.

What an interesting war. This is looking like the equivalent of the Vietnam War, one where, because of political considerations, we couldn’t chase the enemy across the DMZ. Now we won’t hit anything save those deemed “official†buildings and presumably empty.

The media say that the reason for this new warfare is that we don’t want world opinion against us if civilians are harmed or suffer – and we don’t want to have to rebuild large parts of the city as soon as we take over.

Therefore, the Iraqi “civilian infrastructure†must be kept intact.

All of this sounds nice and good – except in a military-police state like Iraq, the civilian infrastructure is inextricably linked with the military one.

Sadly, war is about victory – as Gen. MacArthur said so eloquently, there is no substitute for it. It is not about political considerations, as we are seeing today.

The poor general must now be turning over in his grave as we again are delaying victory and consequently risking the lives of American soldiers by conducting a politically correct war.

Those American soldiers coldly executed this weekend – could they have been saved? Could their deaths have been avoided if we really had used “shock and awe†– an action that put Iraq back into the Stone Age, knocking out telephones, electricity, TV and radio broadcasts, food and water supply, bridges, all communication and transport?

I am not suggesting indiscriminate carpet-bombing of civilians.

I am calling for a war that inflicts immediate damage on an enemy – that either disables its ability to fight or leads to its surrender.

I do think a more standard military attack would have been more effective. A massive aerial bombardment that cuts off the enemy’s armies, isolates them, starves them – followed much later by a ground invasion. Why the rush to bring our forces to Baghdad?

Instead of rushing our ground troops to the capital, let's soften up the enemy. When the lights don’t go on, the water tap is silent and the toilet won’t flush, when food dwindles, when chaos reigns because the leaders are fleeing or dead, that’s when the regime has maximum pressure to be ousted from within. This "war lite" won’t cause it.

Incredibly, what’s happening has been lost on Americans, who are mesmerized by the “reality TV†from the “embedded journalists†and the “rooftop journalists.â€

Meanwhile, by watching the continuous live press coverage, one would think we won this war two days ago. In fact, I was surprised to hear Gen. Tommy Franks, for all the talk of mass surrenders, say we had only 700 POWs in custody as of Saturday. That’s 700 out of a nearly half-million-man Iraqi army.

Franks also said Saturday that "this will be a campaign unlike any other in history," noting the deep penetration of U.S. forces.

So far it has been like any other American war: We hit empty buildings and they execute our soldiers. They execute our soldiers and some Arab TV crew drives back to Baghdad to satellite-uplink this shameful video to the world.

As for the “deep penetration†Franks speaks of, has anyone considered that we are moving so deeply into Iraq because Saddam Hussein and his leadership want us deep in Iraq? Concentrated. Easier to hit. Closer to his elite troops.

Col. David Hackworth said he worries that with U.S. troops so close to Baghdad, Saddam won’t need missiles. His Republican Guard can just pump artillery shells laced with chemical weapons upon our troops. A scary thought.

Similarly, Donald Rumsfeld admitted on “Meet the Press†Sunday that as we get closer to Baghdad, the possibility the Iraqis will use mass destruction weapons “grows.â€

If there is a chance that the Iraqis will use such weapons (my guess is 50-50 they will), shouldn’t we have taken every step by now to incapacitate all of Iraqi society, especially its nerve center in Baghdad?

But it seems the standard approach to war is being lost. MacArthur is dead.

I believe part of the folly we are seeing is based on a presumption we should not be making.

Our American leadership firmly believes that the Iraqis really want to be liberated by America and won’t fight for Saddam. Americans, who love freedom, can easily be deluded into thinking this.

But previous military commanders who battled tyrants in Japan, Germany, the Soviet Union, Korea and Vietnam know that native populations can and will fight tooth and nail for their dictators.

We should not base military strategy on presumptions and political considerations.

From the beginning, we should have been focused on killing Saddam and disarming him, rather than winning the approval of the U.N.

We should have been more concerned about swiftly defeating Iraq’s ability to fight, rather than trying to micromanage from the Pentagon. (We are told that the U.S. is trying to orchestrate, via telephone, a regime change as we wage war. Instead, we should wage war and create a pressure so intense it leads to such a change.)

In a military-police state like Iraq, we need to disable the society as quickly as possible. We can’t be focused on collateral damage.

Secretary Rumsfeld told Tim Russert that we can’t hit certain targets because Saddam has mixed civilian facilities, such as hospitals and schools, with military installations. In previous wars we dealt with such problems simply. We gave fair warning by dropping leaflets announcing the site would be bombed and all should evacuate. We then bombed those facilities. We did not delay.

This is way beyond what we should be expected to do, especially when our adversary, Saddam Hussein, announced that the Geneva Convention would not apply. When the first groups of Americans were captured and summarily executed, we see the danger of this new war.

This is the new trend in politically correct and managed warfare. We see it in Israel, where, in retaliation for terrorist attacks, the Israelis will first call the PLO and tell them what PLO building they plan to bomb.

The Israelis alert their TV cameras and the Israeli Defense Forces arrive for the show on schedule with tanks and jets. Of course, the mission is a great success for the politicians: The empty building is destroyed.

It’s no wonder Israel has yet to solve its terrorist problem.

America will win this war against Iraq. I have no doubt.

But I fear more American casualties than are necessary. I also fear the precedents that may be set from this war, ones that will make the world a more dangerous place for Americans.
 
I think that we are using "measured" force.

We are absolutely not applying all of the force we have available.

Perhaps, our President is wise enough to know that after the war is over, many in the world will judge our performance by the measure of whether we used just enough force and destruction to get the job done, or whether we indiscriminately bombed and killed everyhing in sight.

Are we doing it properly? I honestly don't know. But I will wait until it's over to try to decide.
 
I think it brings up some excellent points, although the author is more enamored with the myth of McArthur than the reality.
Any war is political even WWII. However the poltics has only increased since the close of WWII. I think there are two problems. One is American's expect the war to last two days and be over. That just isn't realistic. The other is the U.S. is under the delusion that everyone is really just an American trapped in another body. This is a strange concept but some people want to be ruled, Heck I suspect half the people of America would welcome some dictator.
I wonder why Saddam hasn't used those scuds he is supposed to have, or why he hasn't used those weapons of mass destruction yet, maybe he or his cronies are just waiting as the article suggests. Also I wonder what happens if the America body count starts rising, so far it seems we are more dangerous to ourselves than the Iraqis are.
I just hope this is over soon and I hope our boys and girls make it home safe.
 
We are pulling our punches. And for good reason. Why blow up infrastructure if we have to go right back and build it up. Makes sense to draw a line between the Iraqi citizens and Saddam's goons. While the arab press is giving us no credit those under the bombs know the difference.

However, we haven't gotten to the bad stuff. If we have to drop bridges, kill power, turn off TV and radio, plow up roads, destroy sewers, and so forth, we can do it in a matter of hours. So why do it before it is necessary?

My only doubt is our incrementalism (for good and valid reasons) is begining to echo like the escalation crap we used in Vietnam. That was a loser strategy and I hope we don't go back down that road. Try an experiment. Replace "shock and awe" with "arc light raid" and tell me the difference. Replace "Baghdad" with "Hanoi". . . . . .
 
I am not too sure I like the way we are going about this war. Even though I agree wholeheartedly about us being there. We should of taken more time bombing the heck out of them enemy forces and then sent them ground forces in. I think the guys above were thinking that most of the Iraq army was gonna roll over and quit. Doesnt look that way.

My suggestion. Use more airpower.

Unleash the Hogs. Let them A-10's do the work baby. Give the beloved A-10 about 3 days to search and destroy and there wont be any Republican Guard left with a will to fight.
 
Hmmm... I don't see any stars on my shoulders... don't even see an eagle or a leaf... no bars either. Tommy Franks, however, does have a few stars on his lapels. It just might be possible that he is more qualified than me and that journalist put together to make battle plans. I think I'll leave it up to him.
 
If precision bombing doesn't get it done, we still have the option of just leveling everything in short order.
Let's hope whoever is still running Iraq realizes that before it comes down to it.
 
Unleash the Hogs. Let them A-10's do the work baby. Give the beloved A-10 about 3 days to search and destroy and there wont be any Republican Guard left with a will to fight.


Would you believe that one cable news report stated that upon calling for air support during the first few firefights in Umm Qasr, two A-10's were called in to try and scare the Iraqi soldiers into surrendering by conducting fly overs and only dropping chaff/flairs......

Not surprisingly the Iraqi troops didn't surrender.

Now if they knew which building the Iraqi troops were in and persuaded them to surrender by using the gatling guns.....
 
It is not our purpose to defeat the Iraqi regime of Saddam by destroying Iraq.

Are we "holding back." Absolutely! :D
 
holding back

Yes , for whatever reason ,putting our guys in trouble with not enough of every thing is appalling & will turn me against the high command very very fast. Thank the powers that be very little,. the pres & his war council. Oh it will be long & difficult war. SH#$5 $%^& ^678(& get it together & kick thier a$$ .Super power blah blah blah.Ploitics are ruling this situation again.
 
Ploitics are ruling this situation again.

Politics are what war is all about, in the end. War is just a way of accomplishing political goals. We aren't fighting a "kill 'em all" war, because that would undermine the long-term goals that the war is meant to accomplish in the first place.
 
Sweet Zeus!

An armored advance that makes 3rd Army's across France look like it was stuck in low gear and everybody starts peering into their navels! :scrutiny:

Folks, we are handing Iraq a butt-kicking the likes of which has seldom been seen in modern warfare. Look at the casualty and prisoner ratios. Look at the ground covered/day. Compared to this, the Christians and the Lions were a pretty close matchup.

I watch the reports and feel like the announcer at a Mike Tyson v. Britney Spears bare-knuckle fight: "She's got her dukes up. He draws back and lets fly with a right cro... OH! Ow! That's gotta hurt..."
 
Tamara :D

Everybody: Of course we're "holding back." You never enter a fight committing all your resources.

Why is it hard to understand that we're not trying to destroy Iraq, but trying to ****can a sadistic sociopath from rule?

It is unprecedented in history that a country's political leadership with their political aims would be so directly connected to the generals and trigger-pullers in the field.

Keep the faith, if you really support the troops.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
I am calling for a war that inflicts immediate damage on an enemy – that either disables its ability to fight or leads to its surrender.

You do know that we have close to 4000 POW’s don’t you? Additionally, that the Iraqi casualties are in the many hundreds if not thousands? The Iraqi command and control is quite possibly completely unable to function and we have well under 50 total coalition casualties, all in less than a week of fighting, yet you are trying to suggest this war is not either disabling the enemy or causing them to surrender?! I would encourage you to think with your head and not with your heart. This war is going stupendously and the chosen tactics are having a marvelous affect on our enemy.
 
The expected result of living in an immediate gatification society.....
'Is that nasty war still on??? I thought it would be over hours ago. I think that five days is ENTIRELY too long!!!! AND, if I have to miss one more episode of Will and Grace for breaking news I will just explode!!!!!!!
Somebody give me a valium and a Perrier.' :barf:
 
Ya, it's tough to run a TOTAL WAR when you are being hamstrung trying to be politically correct. In trying to run a war on the premise that they are "liberating" the Iraqi people, you can't be bombing their cities flat and killing innocents. Now, if the Americans had come out and said in the first place "We are here to kill Saddam and take all your oil and we will do whatever we can to achieve this", then this war could probably be over in weeks. I feel it's gonna drag out for a LONG time due to the fact that you can't carpetbomb or use incendiaries on Baghdad. As for the 4000 or so Iraqi POW's and the estimate of casualties, wow, so impressive...blah. Where are the other 396,000 soldiers, and tanks and choppers that the Iraqi's have?
"Everybody: Of course they're "holding back." You never enter a fight committing all your resources."
 
Where are the other 396,000 soldiers, and tanks and choppers that the Iraqi's have?

Well, mostly they're smoldering wrecks.

I'd be surprised if there is anything flyable currently wearing Iraqi markings.
 
As for the “deep penetration†Franks speaks of, has anyone considered that we are moving so deeply into Iraq because Saddam Hussein and his leadership want us deep in Iraq? Concentrated. Easier to hit. Closer to his elite troops.

Yeah, buddy, kinda the way a Pop Warner football team full of ten-year-olds would sucker the Tampa Bay Buccaneers down towards their own end zone; to lull them into a false sense of security. :rolleyes:

"...and Britney is giving Tyson's knuckles a terrible bruising with her jawbone! He must really be feeling the pain!" :D
 
Of course this war is politically controlled. All wars are ruled by political correctness to a certain degree. Even the much heralded Nukeing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WWII was a political consideration. We could as easily have directed that strike against Tokyo and inflicted many more casualtys and destroyed much more of the Japanese infrastructure.

The Politicos of the time knew that a more measured response would evoke the same response ( Surrender ) and yet leave the government infrastructure intact for use by the Victors to implement a new government. The same premise applies to Iraq. After the war is won as it certainly will be, Our task will be to create a stable, pro western, democratic government. The task will be much easier to accomplish without the burden of having to completely rebuild the physical structures to administer that government.

As to the execution of our captured soldiers, The proper response is IMO to implement the same policy used in WWII. War crimes trials followed by summary executions of those guilty of the crimes. As a practical matter, a good friend of mine ( a veteran of the Battle of the Bulge ) told me that when word that the Germans were executing POWs taken during the attack to avoid having to guard them, our troops responded in kind. The German policy was summarily changed.

As of now the Iraqis have not employed their WMDs. As long as they do not, there is no reason to deviate from the present agenda. If and when they do use Biological and or Chemical weapons against our troops, our response should be swift and certain and overwhelming. If the Iraqis are foolish enough to employ those weapons against the Israelis the problem will be solved forthwith. Can you say NUKE!!

The best course of action is to stick to the present plan unless the SHTF. There is no way a bunch of third rate Camel Jockeys can survive the might of the U.S. military, and unlike Vietnam, there are no jungles to hide in.
 
So, has anyone woken up yet and realized this ain't Desert Storm? I'll admit, I have some misgivings about tactics employed....but I figure much more logical and knowledgeable heads than I are running this thing. My own honest and humble opinion is that no, we are not doing 'everything we can'...and I believe there are three reasons why.

The first is a football analogy. It seems lot of people assume we're somewhere between the second and third quarters. As I see it, we're in the early minutes of the first quarter, on our third offensive possession, and have just finished the first 15 (scripted plays, designed to test/map out the defense and develop the rest of the offensive strategy), and have just begun to adapt our playbook. You don't give all you've got in the first...you have to save your best for that fourth quarter push. It was clear many months ago that this was NOT going to be a short deal....like Bush said, we will accept nothing less than victory. I'm happy to see that the administration and the military are taking this seriously.

The second:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82088,00.html
I'm of the mind that that is EXACTLY the gameplan we're looking for. It is also why I never criticized the whole 'hearts and minds' campaign. We KNEW that the Republican Guard would entrench itself in the civilian quarters...we KNEW they'd want to draw us in to street level fighting. Why spend all the energy doing it ourselves? These people will know MUCH BETTER than we could who is a civvie, and who is in the RG. There's also the consideration that these people might possibly appreciate freedom all the more if they have a hand in winning it themselves. I also think, if we are to seriously take Baghdad, that we will NEED these people to work with us and help us find the dissidents and oppositionists who will no doubt go deep in order to cause more havoc (ala terrorist attacks) during the reconstruction phase. Abusing these people by cutting of their aid, their food, their power, their running water, and expecting that to get them to rise up? Sheer idiocy.

The third is, of course, the ugly P word. Politics. First, our conduct of this war, I believe, will be a MAJOR factor in just how effective our post-war dealings will be. It will be much easier for us to stick the shaft up our opposition (Germany, France, Russia, China, etc), when we have both completed our objects AND conducted ourselves in a manner much higher than the impression presented to the world by out opposition. Is it necessary to do that? No....but it never hurts to hedge your bets. Second, it will be of enormous effect on the homefront. It's going to even further marginalize the peacenik 'No Blood For Oil' and 'Bush is a Terrorist' crowd when our conduct in the war PLAINLY shows that neither is the case. When (I fervently hope) we once again step away from those oil fields, when we help the Iraqi people to build back their own country as a more free entity, it's going to both shut a lot of people up, AND it's going to prove the falsehood of their message.

It's one of the reasons I think we pushed so hard for the MOAB to be ready for this dance.....I don't think Bush is willing to go nuke in this region unless it is absolutely necessary. The MOAB gets us the psychological effects (plus a heck of a lot of damage to boot) without the political ramifications of nuclear weapons. We need to maintain the high road in this conflict...it will make the aftermath so much easier.
 
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