Arrested, caged and DNA tested - for using MP3

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Pilgrim wrote,
He should be grateful they didn't kill him. The last innocent suspect the police took down they filled his head with bullets at contact range.

zxcbbob,

My point was, why the #$@! should he be grateful that the cops didn't kill him? "Grateful" is the wrong word. "Grateful" means he should be shaking the cops' hands and sending them Christmas cards, thanking the cops for not killing him for walking around with his MP3 player.

He should be pissed, first and foremost, that the cops took him into the station. The cops should be grateful that the man hasn't gone Postal on the entire police station.

In America, cops are public servants. That means we hire them to enforce the law and to help keep the peace. This case is completely out of bounds of what the man's tax dollars are paying the cops to do. Sometimes, we have to remind the cops that they're public servants performing a duty for us tax payers and that we pay their salaries.

You want the man to be "grateful" for not be killed for walking around with an MP3 player. Get out of here with that.

Being "grateful" in this situation is a slave mentality. I'm having a hard time with this thread because I don't have a slave mentality and I don't understand people who do.
 
Look it up. Last summer I believe, they executed (assasinated?) a Brazilian electrician as he was sitting on a train in the station minding his own business. They thought he might be a terrorist. (do Brazilians have kind-of-dark skin?)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/17/police.shooting/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/24/uk.police.shooting/

De Menezes, a 27-year-old electrician, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder by police officers on July 22, the day after attempted bombings on London's transport network.
ITV News, citing documents and photographs, reported that de Menezes was not carrying any bags when he entered the Stockwell Tube station and was wearing a denim jacket, rather than a bulky coat as police had previously said.

De Menezes walked at a normal pace, did not vault any barriers and even stopped to pick up a newspaper, ITV News reported.

He descended to the train slowly on an escalator, then ran toward the open subway car and took a seat, according to ITV, which based its account on a document outlining what was captured on surveillance footage.

At about the same time, armed officers were provided with positive identification that de Menezes was either Hamdi Issac, also known as Osman Hussain, one of the suspected bombers from the day before, or another suspect, at which point he was shot, ITV News reported.

According to the network, the crucial mistake that led to de Menezes' death may have occurred that morning as he left his apartment, when surveillance officers spotted him and he was misidentified as a possible terrorist.

London police were authorized to shoot and kill suspects they believed might try to set off more subway bombs. Shortly after de Menezes' death, police justified their actions by saying he was acting suspiciously and tried to run from officers, forcing detectives to make a split-second decision to shoot him.
 
I'm having a hard time with this thread because I don't have a slave mentality and I don't understand people who do.
I think you're having a hard time because you are taking everything literally.
 
Pilgrim wrote,
You don't recognize tongue-in-cheek gallows humor? Sad.

Haha, well, the lack of smilies threw me off.

Seriously, I've run across the type of person that believes he should be grateful. I had no way to know you were joking. Remember that I don't know your tone through text. Further, I don't know you.
 
still in shock!

how on earth can anyone think this is an acceptable occurance in ANY country?
'by the book'? i don't think 'the book' says ANYTHING about MP3 players!
 
I'm not sure why you were yelling at me specifically, but he *should* be grateful -- not grateful to the cops perhaps, but grateful to God or fate or whatever deity he believes in. The police in UK don't work for the people, they work for the Crown, and the people have no guaranteed rights of due process. (see the example we provided you)

On a side note, I ain't had this much fun since the hogs ate my little brother. ;)
 
Add him to the databases is wrong on a couple counts, unless they have some sort of innocent marker.

Why? Even if you're not concerned about HIS rights, it pollutes the database. If we're going to use the database as a list of people more likely to be badguys, we want badguys on the list, not random people who like MP3 players that somebody with my uncorrected vision could mistake for a gun.

Rights wise, I'm pretty sure the arrest is for an unstated british policy at the moment - they want everybody in that DNA database, but right now they need an excuse to put somebody in it. So when given said excuse - they take it.
 
It is only a matter of time before the UK decends to the nightmare that is present in Anthony Burgess's 3rd Novel. Guess which novel that is. Read it, and plus, the police will be far more brutal than they are portrayed in this 1962 classic.

Anthony Burgess and George Orwell are both prophets who predicted what their nation is goign to be like. Now the sad thing is that once totalitarianism is put into place, it will be because the majority of the citizens actually SUPPORT it.

It is probably because of the "ancient" mentality. The history of the UK has been a long and sometimes bloody one. From the Romans, to Edward Longshanks, to the Puritans and the Catholics, England has been ruled by despotic regimes from time to time. Undoutedly, their citizens are used to such rule. Just like in Germany, where under the bitter oppression of the Inquisition, the 1st and 2nd Reichs, the citizens developed a remarkable tolerance to totalitarianism and when the next and perhaps the most violent regime ever seen in the history of Europe rose in the winter of 1933, their citizens responded without much surprise.

This phenomenon is strange and is rather worthy of a sociological study.

In psychology, it is called Conditioned Helplessness. A series of experiments had been performed in the late nineteenth century where a dog was strapped to a mechanism and given electric shocks. Since the animals were bound to restraints, there was no escape possible. The control group of dogs were not restrained, and they had the liberty to jump or do whatever they could to escape the shock, which was warned by a harsh bell tone. The experimental group, once the dogs were freed from their restraints, given the warning tone, and then given the shock, they just stood there and took the shock. It was because they had learned to be HELPLESS. The period of time they were conditioned under the restraints TAUGHT them to believe that no escape was possible, so when they knew they were about to be shocked, they just stood and tolerated it.

This is called Conditioned Helplessness, and I believe the citizens of the UK are experiencing the same thing. It is a psychological experiment, applied to an entire nation. It might have been funny if it was really "just an experiment", but it is not. It is a social movement at work. The last time a European nation exhibited Conditioned Helplessness, over 10 million people were gassed and slaughtered.
 
In psychology, it is called Conditioned Helplessness.
It was because they had learned to be HELPLESS. It is a social movement at work.

Ok let's start here; think about socialized medicine, mortgage bailouts, the welfare state, gun control, and have another go round.
 
how on earth can anyone think this is an acceptable occurance in ANY country? 'by the book'? i don't think 'the book' says ANYTHING about MP3 players!

The problem is not the police in this case, it's the draconian anti-gun and anti-terrorism laws in place in the UK. It's the climate of 24/7 big brother CCTV and fear mongering. It's the socialist state treating everyone like a child. It's a Parliament determined to destroy every last real liberty in the land. If it was just a rogue cop or two it wouldn't be half as disturbing. But what the police did here is nothing unusual or even illegal. If you're suspected of having a firearm there, expect to be arrested at the very least. Lord knows what they would do to me over there. Kill me I suspect.
 
reallity check the law there is very different
i believe they have in some cases conpelled dna tests for large groups to solve some crimes
 
As i mentioned before, it is a matter of people in European being subjects rather than citizens. The "natural state" in Europe is of people being subjects to royalty, Royalty considered to have been given their power by god.
People over here still think that to vote is a privilege and not a right and a duty. They still think that they are here to serve the rulers, rather than the other way around.
Our cage may be gilded, but it is still a cage. Were someone to open the door of the cage, not many over here would dare to fly.
I believe it was in 1976 that the swedish constitution was changed from saying that all legislative and executive power comes from the king, to all legislative and executive power comes from the people.
 
Cosmoline, I get your point, the cops will do as much as the people will allow them to do (or even require them to do), and the way to change that is through parliment.

Still doesn't make it right. Fixing the blame is pretty tricky too. For sure, the people who vote for the MPs get the blame, as does parliment itself. But say a government eventually passes a law or gives a command that infringes on the basic rights of the people (DC gun ban, New Orleans confiscations) at what point do you expect the average police officer to say basically "You know what? this may be legal, but it is wrong".

As mentioned before "I was just following orders" does not make you immune for the responsibility of carrying out those orders.

Even if it is not specifically spelled out, people have certain rights, including due process. It is of course a bit grey where reasonable holding a person until all details are figured out ends and false imprisonment begins. Obviously, having someone detained in a squadcar for 10 minutes isn't an issue, but someone in a holding cell for a month before charges are considered is not.
 
As mentioned before "I was just following orders" does not make you immune for the responsibility of carrying out those orders.
I have been thinking about this

The incident does not follow the "I was just following orders" theory
More like they were just following protocol

We can't grasp the concept any more than we can understand being stoned for adultery or eating a pig
If the masses choose to follow the role of subservient subjects it is because this is how they really see themselves and are comfortable in this position

I was watching something on TV last week,( don't know what I just need the background noise for the tinnitus, Might have been travel channel)
The hosts guide was explaining that the people of his island country readily accept their role as subjects because that means that the prince has to take care of them

Just as children that accept that we as parents have to take care of them, they must also just have to accept that some of our rules will be distasteful to them but we enforce them because we feel that they are in the best interest of the children, who will of course have no say in the matter because we will always know best

In short
The world will treat you like you allow your self to be treated, nothing more nothing less
You get what you earn out of life
 
This discussion is in some ways, interesting to me, as many years ago, I worked in London for a few months, and have visited GB a couple of times, though not recently. London was a fascinating city and the British people I ran into seemed a fine bunch, for the most part.

More important however than how The Queens subjects are treated by their government or by The Crown is the following. The direction of things in the U.S., since that is where almost all of the contributors here are located.
 
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The police did apologize when they dropped him off at home, but here are a couple of quotes from Nixon, "They just dropped me off at home and said a quick 'sorry for any inconvenience', and that was all I got from them, which I thought was pretty out of order. I expected a bit more than that. I haven't even had a written apology. I don't know what the neighbours must think."

There is a Liberal Democratic party in the UK that is trying to get the DNA records of over 125,000 people who were not charged in crimes removed from the database.

Here is a link to a UK web article about the incident with comments from many people concerning the loss of freedom the British are seeing as a result of the GWOT. Many of the comments read like they came from this page regarding compensation, official apologies, the actions of the police, and the state of the UK.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=98741&in_page_id=34&expand=true#StartComments
 
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In light of the OP, and the direction this thread has gone, I think this article from the Wall Street Journal is appropriate.

For your consideration.

Fred

The Gene Police
In Britain, Controversial DNA-Tracing Tactics Are
Helping Forensics Experts Crack Unsolved Crimes

By GAUTAM NAIK
February 23, 2008
Birmingham, England

In April 1993, a man in a balaclava mask escaped after sexually assaulting a 36-year-old woman in the town of Bridgwater, England. More than 13 years later, forensic detectives used an unusual approach to track the man down: A genetic trace that led first to his sister.
Known as familial searching, the U.K. technique has already helped crack 20 difficult cases and led to the arrest of several long-elusive murderers and rapists.

The innovation is propelled by the growth of Britain's DNA database, which holds the records of 4.2 million people in England and Wales, or nearly 8% of the population there, one of the largest proportions in the world. Anyone arrested -- including for minor offenses -- must provide a DNA sample, which stays in the database permanently, even if the person is acquitted. About a quarter of the profiles are of minors, some as young as 10.

The U.S. is now considering following Britain's lead. The Federal Bureau of Investigation's national DNA database, plus those maintained by individual states, together hold about 5.6 million DNA profiles, or almost 2% of the population. The overwhelming majority of all profiles are from convicted felons.

But 11 states have passed laws to allow DNA samples to be taken from people who have been arrested but may not have been convicted. The Department of Justice separately is finalizing rules permitting genetic profiles to be collected from anyone arrested by federal authorities. And in March, the FBI will host a symposium to discuss the merits of familial searching. One speaker is Tony Lake, chairman of the U.K.'s national DNA board.

Familial searching has very rarely been used in the U.S. because crime labs typically don't have the sophisticated software needed for such searches. Nor do U.S. database administrators yet have the explicit legal authority to use the approach. "We're promoting a public debate, but we have taken no position yet on familial searching," says Thomas Callaghan, head of the FBI's DNA database program.

In a standard investigation using DNA, experts take a sample obtained from a crime scene and try to identify the culprit by matching the sample with DNA profiles already stored in a database from previous crimes. A familial search looks for a near match, rather than an identical match. A near match may indicate that the sample in the database is that of a close blood relative, who can then help lead police to the actual perpetrator.

"DNA is the best kind of forensic evidence there is -- it's better than an eyewitness account," says Philip Reilly, a U.S. geneticist, attorney and expert on DNA forensics. "So there's been a drumbeat to increase the scope of the laws on both sides of the Atlantic."

Profiling the Innocent

Civil-liberties groups oppose the rapid expansion of DNA databases, arguing that they risk placing sensitive personal information in the hands of the government. Unlike old-fashioned fingerprints, they say, DNA contains health and hereditary data such as paternity markers that could be misused. Leaked data, for example, could be used to deny insurance coverage or employment to people identified as being at risk for a genetic disease.

Forensic experts say such fears are overblown because databases hold only a tiny fraction of a person's DNA makeup. The information is stored as a series of numbers converted from a physical DNA sample.

Critics also say some research techniques pose ethical problems. They say a DNA-based "ethnic inference" test can provide uncertain predictions about the race of potential suspects that may mislead the police or reinforce existing prejudices. Pioneered by British forensic experts, the test tries to identify whether the subject belongs to one of five racial groups, such as "white-skinned European" or "Indian subcontinent." A separate DNA test can identify criminals with red hair.

British geneticist Alec Jeffreys, who invented the technique of genetic profiling in 1984, has questioned the need to retain DNA profiles of innocent people. He says the DNA database was originally set up only for convicted criminals who could be quickly identified if they committed additional crimes. In January, the U.K. government's Human Genetics Commission launched a public inquiry into the practice of storing DNA from people who are acquitted or never charged.

The Home Office, which oversees the police forces of England and Wales and their combined DNA database, say those who are innocent have nothing to fear from providing a sample. They say retaining this evidence is no different from recording other forms of information such as photographs and witness statements.

In 1995, the U.K. became one of the first places to set up a national DNA database to fight crime. The database does not include profiles from Scotland or Northern Ireland, which have separate systems. Police were initially required to destroy DNA samples and profiles if a suspect's charges were dropped or if the person was acquitted. But that requirement was eliminated in 2001. Three years later, police were allowed to take DNA from anyone they arrested.

Now, U.K. police are seeking powers to let them take DNA samples from people who are charged with minor infractions like speeding or littering. They hope to obtain these samples via cheek swabs done on the street, an approach similar to a breathalyzer test. A senior appellate judge, as well as former prime minister Tony Blair, have called for the database to ultimately include DNA profiles of every U.K. resident.

Reopening the 'Nora' Case

Familial searching has netted several notable successes for British police. It was first used in 2003, when a driver was killed from a brick flung at his truck. DNA scraped from the brick led investigators to a relative of the assailant. The brick thrower was convicted of manslaughter.

In the early 1980s, a man assaulted four women in the county of Yorkshire. He was dubbed the "Shoe Rapist" because he made off with his victims' footwear. Two decades later, police sorted through 43 familial matches to his DNA, including a woman once arrested for drunk driving. When the police questioned her brother, a respected businessman, he confessed and was sentenced to 15 years. Investigators found dozens of stilettos hidden at his home and workplace.

One of the most recent breakthroughs in familial searching occurred in the case of the 36-year-old woman raped in Bridgwater on April 26, 1993. British laws prohibit the publication of the victim's real name; in police files she is referred to simply as "Nora."

That night, as Nora walked along a canal to her sister's home, she was grabbed by a man in a balaclava mask, dragged into the undergrowth and sexually assaulted. Nora later told police that the man had a local accent, and that the skin around his eyes was white. Because of similar attacks in recent months, police figured they were looking for a serial rapist.

A DNA sample obtained from the assailant's semen was first checked against genetic profiles of known criminals in the national database. There were no matches. The police then began a massive manhunt.

They set up an "incident room," conducted house-to-house inquires, and assigned up to 30 staff to investigate the rapes. They tried to match the DNA from 20 local men with previous sexual-assault convictions, but came up with nothing. After months of fruitless police work, the investigation was scaled down and eventually shelved.

By 2003, speedy computers and new methods, such as familial searching, persuaded police forces across Britain to re-investigate tens of thousands of unsolved rapes and murders committed decades earlier. That year, police in Bristol, a large city 40 miles from Bridgwater, set up a six-person group for their own backlog of "cold case" crimes.
The team considered 1,100 rape cases, going back to 1976 and used various criteria to narrow the list. They eventually sent a dozen DNA samples to the Forensic Science Service, a government-run outfit in the city of Birmingham that analyzes DNA and develops new forensic technology. The samples sent from Bristol came from the most notorious cases -- including the Bridgwater rapes -- and were sent for familial searching and other sophisticated tests.

Familial searching is based on the way we inherit genes. Every gene comes from either one's father or mother. Close blood relatives -- parents and their children, or siblings -- will share alleles, which are versions of a particular gene. Because alleles can be used as genetic markers, DNA profiles from a crime scene can be compared to profiles of known individuals to see if there are any close family matches.

In doing a standard genetic match, U.K. scientists look at 20 alleles along a string of DNA. If a match is found for all 20 alleles for a pair of DNA profiles, there's virtually no doubt that both DNA samples come from the same person -- unless the samples come from identical twins. Near matches of only 17, 18 or 19 alleles may indicate a close blood relative.

A Request For a Family Tree

In late 2005, the FSS ran a familial search of the Bridgwater rapist's genetic profile against all DNA fingerprints stored in the national database. That generated a list of 4,000 people with close matches, each a potential parent, child, or sibling of the offender.

Based on Nora's description, police knew they were looking for a white man with a strong local accent. So they eliminated all non-whites on the list. They also excluded people who weren't from the local area, the counties of Avon and Somerset.

Around this time, detectives re-visited Nora, informing her that they were taking another look at her case, using familial searching. "She immediately became upset and tearful at the mention of the re-investigation" as it brought back bitter memories from a dozen years earlier, says Michael Britton, the detective-sergeant in charge of the case. But Nora agreed to support a prosecution if the man was ever identified.

Of the remaining names, Mr. Britton and his colleagues next focused on the 100 or so local males. To narrow down a possible family link, the Bristol police asked the FSS to do a Y-STR comparison.

Y-STRs are repeated chemical sequences along DNA that are found only on the male Y chromosome. The sequences are inherited along the paternal line and change little over generations. By comparing the Y-STRs from the Bridgwater attacker to the Y-STRs of the 100 males on the list, the police hoped to identify a male relative -- such as the father or a brother -- of the offender.

Yet again, there were no matches. By September 2006, the investigation was petering out. The last prospects on the list were seven females whose DNA pointed to a possible kinship with the perpetrator. Mr. Britton and his colleagues visited them and obtained their family trees, in the hope of pinpointing male relatives.

It was a sensitive request. "Some got alarmed," remembers Mr. Britton. "They said: 'Are you suggesting that one of my relatives is a rapist?' "

Lifetime of Genetic Surveillance
This is the very issue that alarms critics of familial searching, who note that the technique focuses an investigation on the innocent relatives of a criminal -- or people who may not be related to the culprit at all.

In June 2006, Frederick Bieber, associate professor of pathology at Harvard Medical School, and two colleagues published a study in the journal Science on the potential use of familial searching in the U.S. They concluded that the technique would increase the chances of finding a criminal by 40% when compared with current methods of DNA matching.

But they also warned that the method "could raise new legal challenges, as a new category of people effectively would be placed under lifetime genetic surveillance."

The family trees in the Bridgwater case yielded four male names, including Geoffrey Godfrey, a construction worker who lived a few streets from the scene of the 1993 Bridgwater rapes. Mr. Godfrey was listed on the tree given to police by his sister, who was in the national DNA database because she had once given a DNA sample after a minor driving-related offence.

Born in 1965, Mr. Godfrey roughly matched the age of Nora's assailant. On Sept. 13 and 20, police tried him at home and got no answer. When they knocked on his door the following Saturday, he was in bed with a cold.

The police told Mr. Godfrey that they were looking into sexual-assault cases and wanted to eliminate people on a list. But they kept the details vague, and didn't disclose that the crimes they were investigating were a dozen years old. Mr. Godfrey, who had recently married, willingly provided a cheek swab.

Mr. Britton sent the swab to the FSS, in order to compare Mr. Godfrey's DNA profile against that of the Bridgwater attacker. Two days later, the FSS experts faxed the result: It was a perfect match.

Mr. Godfrey was charged with four sexual assaults in Bridgwater. He recently pleaded guilty to the attack on Nora, and is now serving a six-year sentence. The court ordered the other three charges to be dropped because of insufficient proof.
"He is deeply ashamed of what happened," says Ian Pringle, the barrister who defended Mr. Godfrey. "It was a long time ago."

For Nora, the process has dredged up painful memories. In response to questions relayed to her via Mr. Britton, Nora says she is disappointed at the length of her assailant's sentence. But at the same time, she adds, the guilty plea saved her the "tremendous ordeal" of having to testify, and thereby re-live in court the horror of the attack on her.

Write to Gautam Naik at [email protected]

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120372569853187081-lMyQjAxMDI4MDIzMzcyMjM1Wj.html
 
This excerpt was taken from an British resistance blog "Nanny knows best".
If this doesn't send a chill up your spine...
_____________________________________________________

I have to say that even my cynical, cold calculating mind was somewhat gobsmacked when I read this story.

It shows just how paranoid the Nanny state has become, and the dangers that we now all face from our own government.

Darren Nixon, a 28 year old mechanic from Stoke on Trent, was listening to his MP3 player whilst waiting for a bus.

Nanny has so managed to instill a sense of fear and panic in some of our fellow citizens that a somewhat hysterical female passer-by saw what she thought was a gun, it was of course the MP3 player.

She called the police, who duly tracked Mr Nixon using CCTV. When he got off the bus home from work he was surrounded by a firearms unit, who bundled him into a van.

He was then put in a cell and his fingerprints, DNA and mugshots were taken before he was released.

I would venture to suggest that no more than 30 seconds after arresting him should police have worked out that the "gun" was in fact an MP3 player.

Therefore why did they insist on taking his photo and DNA details?

It should be noted that Mr Nixon's DNA, picture and prints will be forever held on Nanny's nasty little database; leaving him with a "criminal" record.

Nanny's police will also keep on record that he was arrested on suspicion of a firearms offense.

How is that right?

Mr Nixon said:

"It was unreal – I had a completely clean record before this and have always been a law-abiding citizen.

As I got closer, I could see that two of the cops had guns. My heart was racing a mile a minute. One of them was hiding behind a car door, looking down his sight at me, and the other was shouting orders and pointing a gun at me.

I turned the music off and they were telling me to put my hands up in the air."

A spokesman for Nanny said:

"An operation was put in place and a man matching the description was detained."

No hint of an apology, or explanation as to why Nanny will keep his DNA etc on her database.

Yes, the police were right to check out the 999 call. However, as already noted, within 30 seconds of arresting Mr Nixon they could verify he was not in possession of a weapon.

Why did they proceed with taking his prints, photo and DNA?

Something is very seriously wrong in Britain now.

The state should be afraid of the people, not the people afraid of the state!


www.nannyknowsbest.com is brought to you by www.kenfrost.com "The Living Brand"
 
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