Average Round Count in USPSA Production Division

[Life During Wartime]

Hi! I am thinking about possibly getting into competitive shooting and am completely green regarding that field. Not even sure if I want to, but am trying to figure out how much money outlay for gear would be. The pistol I have in mind takes magazines which can be had for a good price and have heard that you need about 4 or 5. Right now, I have only two. Since these would be 8-round magazines, I am wondering if that figure may be more like 5 to 6. The biggest chunk of money that is competition specific I am seeing is the mag pouches to hold said magazines. So I can better figure out how many mags (and pouches) would be needed, could anyone give me a rough estimate of how many rounds you actually would have to shoot without re-equipping your mags?

P.S. The pistol I have in mind is on the approved list for production division (that is one of the few things I have been able to figure out on my own)

 

[ATLDave]

First, it's great that you are thinking about competition and USPSA in particular. Good for you!

Second thing, to answer your question: Round counts for single stages* can get up to 32 (or even higher in club or outlaw matches). You will often need/want to reload in between positions, even before the gun runs dry, and sometimes you'll want/need make-up shots. So you want far more than 32 on your belt. I shoot in limited division, so I can have big magazines. Mine hold 19 or 20 rounds, and I walk to the line with 4. I never need more than 3... unless I fumble one during a reload or get a jam and have to strip one out with almost all the rounds still in. Most guys shooting the restricted capacity divisions will have 5-6 mags ready on their belt, and sometimes will have an extra one to put in the gun at the make-ready command.

Third thing: It doesn't sound like you're currently on a path to having gear that is well-optimized to USPSA. I say this simply because, other than 1911's in 45 ACP, you're going to be at a disadvantage with 8-round mags, though it won't be crippling. I'll try to break this down:

• Production division allows 10 round magazines. So if you're in production, you'd be competing against other people with 10-rounders.
• Single Stack is limited to 8 round mags, but only for major, and that division is just for 1911's. If your gun is on the production list, it is necessarily not a Single Stack gun. So you're not going to be playing in that division. Nor are you going to be in Revolver if you're buying mags, which is the other place that 8-round guns are advantageous.
• Limited-10 is also limited to 10 rounds, not 8. Limited and Open and Carry Optics all have higher capacities.
• Although the rules say that a stage design cannot require more than 8 shots from one location/view, which is designed to make 8-shot 1911's never have to do a standing reload, it is rare for a match not to have opportunities to shoot more than 8 rounds. Plus, misses on steel are a thing (at least for me).
• In short, competing against guys with 10 rounds on board when you can only do 8 is going to be a bit of a disadvantage.

Now, what do you do with this? It depends. If you are pretty committed to your current gun, then buy enough mags to have a half dozen and get involved. If you are just starting to acquire gear, though, and think you care about having stuff that is reasonably optimized for competition, then you may want to step back and consider whether to devote money to mags for a gun that you may move away from fairly soon. Some people disagree with me, but I think there can be a lot of value in going to a match just to watch, get a feel for how it operates, and talk to the shooters about gear and other things. A visit to a match might make all of this easier for you to figure out.

Just to try to move this forward, though, what kind of gun are you contemplating using?

* Stages are like holes on a golf course, whereas the match is like the round of golf. Stages are the discrete, timed efforts/tests, and you can reload magazines between them as you progress through the whole match.

 

[Life During Wartime]

Thanks ATLDave for the good info. The gun is a Walther post-war p38. A bit unusual, I know. But I can get mags for about $10 a piece and a holster for $30. I have a better gun option I could use for competing but the mags cost 4 times as much for each one and the holster I have been eyeing for that gun is around $120+.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, that one will stand out! I think you have to go into it knowing that it's basically a low-cost, low-stress way to try out the game, and knowing that, if you get into it, you'll likely want to change gear. As long as you know that going in, then, yeah, "wasting" $40 on mags isn't bad at all. Maybe the bigger issue is that since the mags are single-stack in width, you probably won't be able to use the holders for double-stack mags if you end up choosing to shoot production or limited.

Bear in mind that, in production, magazines have to be on the belt behind the forward point of your hip-bone... for a right-hander, roughly 10:00 and back.

 

[Jim Watson]

I usually shoot Single Stack Minor or Limited 10 with 10 in the gun. For one of the longer stages here, I carry four magazines on my belt, plus the one in the gun. 50 rounds to get 32 hits.

There is a particular technique for hastily reloading a heel catch gun. Hook the left forefinger over the front of the magazine floorplate where it protrudes in front of the frontstrap, thumb back the catch, and FLIP. This does tend to throw the magazine a good distance, but at least you won't be stepping on it.

But I agree with Dave, $40 for a magazine is not bad and you don't have to buy a $120 holster when a $50 one will do.

 

[Life During Wartime]

Thank you again for the good info.

 

[ATLDave]

No worries. I think you will find that USPSA is full of people who enjoy helping people into the sport. It's one of the great things about it... someone you're competing with/against is still very likely to point out a good way to shoot a particular stage, do better on movement or activator sequences, etc. You will generally have a lot more people rooting for you to do well than to have a bad stage... and even the latter are usually confined to your buddies!

 

[tarosean]

So I can better figure out how many mags (and pouches) would be needed, could anyone give me a rough estimate of how many rounds you actually would have to shoot without re-equipping your mags?

32 rounds is the maximum per stage..

You absolutely want the maximum number of mags that you have space for. Lots of qualifiers require magazine changes. In addition, stages can also be written to included mandatory changes.

Add in malfunctions, user error and when you learn to game your changes. (like dropping mags at certain points regardless of ammo left in them)
All adds up to going through magazines like water.

Oh and dont ever put a used mag back on your belt.

 

[waktasz]

The Ghost magazine pouches that I use and prefer can be had for about $30. I have 5 on my belt when I shoot Production. I have 6 mags that I usually bring to a match.

I'm also going to go ahead and say without a doubt that your oddball choice of a gun is a bad idea. You need a modern gun with at least 10 round mags.

 

[jmorris]

I would find a local club and go watch a match first. Let’s you meet the folks and see how everything operates. Won’t be such an overload when you bring your stuff the next time.

 

[ATLDave]

The Ghost magazine pouches that I use and prefer can be had for about $30. I have 5 on my belt when I shoot Production. I have 6 mags that I usually bring to a match.

Even cheaper than that! https://benstoegerproshop.com/ghost-hybrid-magazine-mag-pouch/

 

[ddc]

I believe 32 rounds/stage is only a limitation at Level 3 and higher matches.

Having said that, 32 rounds is a typical maximum at local and level 2 matches also, at least in my area.

However 32+ up to maybe 40 round stages pop up also.

I shoot production with 5 on my belt. Rarely have to go to the last mag.
But it has happened; especially if I'm clumsy and drop a mag or hook a mag by accident when I'm drawing the one next to it.

Stages with a lot of steel can be higher round count stages than you might expect.
If it is a high round count steel stage I'll stick an extra in my back pocket just in case.

 

[thomas15]

The Ghost magazine pouches that I use and prefer can be had for about $30. I have 5 on my belt when I shoot Production. I have 6 mags that I usually bring to a match.

I'm also going to go ahead and say without a doubt that your oddball choice of a gun is a bad idea. You need a modern gun with at least 10 round mags.

It is true that there are those that compete on a budget. But the general tone of wakasz above is an ATLDave for that matter is really true. Everyone that competes wants to help newcomers to the sport but there is a certain reality associated with the thing, in particular USPSA. So you are getting truthful information not trying to discourage you OP.

I shoot mostly Steel Challenge (which an argument could be made is The Place for budget minded newcomers) but have USPSA production and Revolver division rigs in my stable. The above mentioned Ghost mag pouches are the least expensive quality pouches available. I have 6 on my belt (plus one in the pocket) as I'm not as confident as waktasz. For reasons I will not go into now you will want a rigid Kydex holster, figure at least 60 dollars plus a belt say 50 bux so your belt assembly will be +/- 300 dollars. I shot several USPSA matches in production using mine and borrowed inexpensive Uncle Mikes double mag pouches (total 3) on a leather carry belt. I survived but it's not optimum even for a beginner.

As ATLDave mentions you will want at least 10 rounds in your magazines. So something like (and this is not a advertisement) a Glock 17 or 34 with at least 6 magazines. With this gun and less than 6 mags you can load them with 17 rounds and shoot limited division.

Most, but not all who compete in this endeavor handload their own ammo. Once you take the bait and the hook is set you will be consuming ammo like you never thought possible. Figure another 1000 bucks min to get into that fun and games.

 

[thomas15]

Not even sure if I want to, but am trying to figure out how much money outlay for gear would be.

TRANSLATION: You want to do this don't kid yourself... LOL!

 

[ATLDave]

thomas', you're not wrong. But, there are also a substantial number of folks who are more casual participants in USPSA, or who begin and stay at a casual level for several years, using gear that is not fully optimized and not doing a lot of heavy practicing. Now, those folks generally stay in D class - and some are OK with that.

For someone who doesn't currently have gear that is optimal for the sport, I keep going back to the suggestion of attending a match. Watching a match will help a prospective new shooter in a bunch of ways, including:

• The person will get a much better sense about whether the game looks like fun to them. Watching it on youtube is one thing, but seeing it in person is another. People who watch a match usually have a pretty good idea about whether the game is "for them" or not.
• Once you see a match, equipment issues become much easier to understand. It will become obvious to the OP, for instance, why a P38 may be legal, but that it would pose a real level of disadvantage/inconvenience. He could then decide whether he was OK entering his first marathon wearing wingtips or if he wanted to shell out for some inexpensive running shoes.
• He will have a good chance to digest what the safety rules and gun-handling looks like. He can minimize his chances of classic n00b mistakes like unholstering before the "make ready" command, or breaking the 180 as he negotiates a corner during a course of fire, or running to slide lock for every reload.

For those and other reasons, I think going to watch a match (really, the first hour of a match would give 95% of the information... he doesn't have to hang around all day unless he's enjoying talking to folks and watching) is the best thing to do before spending any amount of money the OP thinks material.

 

[thomas15]

Dave I totally agree with you and my intention wasn't to make it sound like the aspiring competitor needs to cough up several thousand dollars before the first match. I also think that it is a good idea to shoot a few before writing out a bunch of checks. For most I think it takes some time to determine exactly where one fits before becoming committed.

 

[mcb]

I got lucky and when I showed up to my first USPSA match the weather was so bad (April in Ohio is quite the gamble for an outdoor match) that they setup and ran a Steel Challenge style match instead of a full USPSA match (pasters don't stick well in sleet). It was the perfect intro as it was mostly stand and shoot stages with no reloads on the clock. I got the range commands under my belt and figure out what was and was not working as far as my basic draw and shoot motions. I meet a lot of good people got some good tips. Because it was an abnormal match they also told me all about what a real USPSA match was going to be like. When I came back the next month is was full on USPSA match and I hit the ground running. I have never looked back just changed divisions every few years.

Depending on how comfortable you are with your handgun would determine if I tried to participate in the first match I went to or just observe. I was very comfortable with my chosen handgun and how to do the basics like draw, shoot and reload. If you are not super comfortable with that then it would not hurt to just watch a match or two like ALTDave suggests. On the other hand if you are very comfortable with those basic functions I would tell the OP to take your gun, ammo and as many magazines as you can manage and the cheapest mag pouches you can find, like cheap cloth surplus ones if nothing else will work. Your first few matches there is so much to learn that sub-optimal equipment will not be a liability as long as it functions reliably. By the time you have learned enough to see how your equipment is limiting your performance you will know enough to pick new equipment for the division/budget that interests you most.

Go a little early to your first match whether you're shooting or not. A lot of clubs will have one of the RO's do a short Newbie intro class before the match. I use to do those intros for my home club back in Ohio and I would take all the newbies and give them a ten minute introduction to the sport telling them the critical safety related rules, and then walk through one of the match's stages showing them the basics of how to shoot a stage safely and within the rules and a quick overview of the scoring.

 

[thomas15]

mcb good post.

I also mentioned Steel Challenge as a good intro to the sport. I think though that everyone responding to this thread is dancing around the hard truth that there is some cost associated with this hobby. If the OP is really on a tight budget and will fade into the mist if he needs to put some money into this then Steel Challenge is a great option.

Looking at the numbers, he states he can buy magazines for $10.00 so he gets 5 more that gives him 7 or 8 (8)round magazines allowing him to use his present pistol. Loads off the table so doesn't need mag pouches. He gets an inexpensive holster say $30.00 and uses what ever belt he can find. That leaves ammo as the only other expense plus the match entry fee. So to answer the OP question he would need depending on the number of stages 150 to 200 rounds, more if he has a bunch of misses. So first match 100 bucks, the second will be less.

 

[ATLDave]

The one other thing I would toss out is that having gear that is reasonably optimized for USPSA has two distinct benefits: 1) there's the direct competitive advantage (or, rather, non-disadvantage, since almost everyone else has pretty game-oriented gear), which is what most people think and talk about; and 2) there is the safety and psychological advantage that comes from not having to actively fight your gear. I'm going to talk about the second things for a moment.

I run as weekly indoor match that a lot of shooters use as their first experience in the sport. (And I was one of those people.) I've been MD'ing that match for almost 4 full years now, so I have seen new shooters do about every new shooter thing that can be done. A lot of the stupider things I have seen have been in the context of a shooter who is fighting their gear... clearing a malfunction and getting an AD; struggling to get mags to drop or out of a not-good mag carrier and loosing track of the 180; fumbling to get a gun back into a soft holster and sweeping their weak hand. The list can go on and on, but when a new shooter starts fighting their gear, my anxiety level spikes... I know the chances that I'm about to see something unsafe and have to DQ them have just gone up an order of magnitude or more, and I don't like it.

There's probably no safety benefit to having a gun that is tricked out with fiber-optic front sight and magwell and a tungsten guide rod... but having gear that won't actively fight the kinds of things we have to do in USPSA does have a safety benefit. To be clear, I've seen lots of new shooters run very sub-optimal gear safely. It can be done. It just really adds more things to the balls they have to juggle. I don't think people should spend a lot of money before they've even seen a match, but, at the same time, they should know what they're getting into by using gear that is likely to actively fight them. Watching a match will make all that stuff easier to project for the shooter, and they can make a better assessment of what is or is not too much to deal with.

 

[mcb]

Yeah thomas15 this sport is not cheap. Your going to to spend some money to play. You can do it economically or extravagantly but your going to have to spend a fair bit of money for sure.

I agree with ALTDave that you do not want to be fighting your equipment. You can get away with sub-optimal economy equipment to learn the sport and figure out what equipment you do want to spend money on. BUT that starter equipment has to work. Your holster should cover the trigger guard and be tight enough to retain the gun even if you jump up and down and it should also allow an easy one handed reholstering. Mag pouches should similarly not release a mag if you jump up and down. One handed insertion is very nice but not required here.

Some of this depends on how handy you are willing to be. I shot my first ~two years with the freebie paddle holster and mag pouches that came with my XD-40 but I was not afraid to cut and wrench on the the holster and mag pouches to make them work for me. I am still using the generic Cheaper-than-Dirt 2-inch outer-belt I bought that second year. It was a find.

So on one hand you don't want to fight your equipment for all the reason ALTDave lays out but on the other hand you don't want to spend too much money on good equipment until you know enough to identify good competitive equipment. It's sort of a catch-22. And I think that brings us back to ALTDave earlier point that going and just watch is not a bad idea, especially if your unsure on your equipment. I would still take the equipment you have just in-case.

 

[LiveLife]

OP, if you shoot USPSA over several years, cost of firearm and magazines will be small compared to ammunition cost. If you don't want to be frustrated being at the bottom every year, see what pistols top shooters in the Division you are interested in are using and consider buying those pistols.

If you absolutely must/want to shoot Walther P38, then that's one thing but if not, I would highly recommend you shoot some different pistols (many match shooters will let you shoot their pistols), especially through match stages (Club may let you do that after the match or on match practice days) and select the pistol you are most comfortable with and can shoot fast and accurate.

We hosted several "Bring your other guns to match practice" days where we got to shoot various pistols through practice stages and in the end, small number of brands/models kept coming up with higher stage scores due to most shooters being able to shoot faster with comparable accuracy.

Keep in mind, USPSA scoring benefits speed over slight less accuracy.

 

[tarosean]

My first foray into USPSA was.. I only had only one gun that met the production requirements. (almost everything I own has been highly modified) A G17, I *think* I had enough mags but defiantly not enough mag holders so they went in the back pockets.
I was a case of "run what you brung" and I recommend that for anyone.

As ATL pointed out Ive seen many people show up with inadequate guns/equipment. Yet they eventually get better equipment so they are not competing with one arm tied behind their back. Course Ive also seen the same person show up with his single stack Beretta (less than 10rds) and give it a whirl week after week after week

I was hooked from the get go. So it goes, many guns and many setups later, all costing a pretty penny, I am where I want to be. Well maybe not, I do what a Tanfo for production.. . ***Caveat being I am only in county 6m a year so I am not as active as most.

I'd be more worried about breaking my P-38 honestly... What is the other gun you own? Although mags 4x more expensive. Limited might be another option for you?


Where are you located OP? Im sure I have extra single and double stack holders sitting in a drawer to "pay it forward".

 

[ddc]

Another option is to post your interest and situation on a local USPSA forum or facebook group.

On several occasions prospective competitors have done that in my area.

I seem to recall them receiving multiple offers from people volunteering to bring a complete competition outfit, belt, holster, pouches, mags, gun, etc. so they can try it out.

Heck, if you were local I've got an extra rig you could borrow.

 

[mcb]

Another option is to post your interest and situation on a local USPSA forum or facebook group.

On several occasions prospective competitors have done that in my area.

I seem to recall them receiving multiple offers from people volunteering to bring a complete competition outfit, belt, holster, pouches, mags, gun, etc. so they can try it out.

Heck, if you were local I've got an extra rig you could borrow.

I have been known to loan a rig to a fellow competitor. Especially my revolver rig. We often shot local club matches twice in different divisions so on my second run I would loan my revolver rig to anyone I could talk into it. I was working it pretty hard to get more Revolver participation. At special classifier matches we would also often swap rigs just to try another division out. I do not own and Open gun but I am classified in open on borrow equipment. My initial Limited classification was also on borrowed equipment although I finally got myself a proper Limited gun earlier this year.

 

[Jim Watson]

Me, too. I have a new shooter I am supporting with the loan of a Glock and gear.

While I think it would be fine for the OP to start out with his P38, upon due reflection I have concluded that it would be false economy. If he stayed interested he would likely move on to a more competitive pistol and all those extra 8 round magazines would be surplus.
He has a better gun of some sort but does not want to spend money on extra magazines. Tough.