Backdoor Registration???

[PapaG]

It looks like Illinois has sneaked in a form of registration, at least regarding person to person transfers. Originally, to transfer from one individual to another one went to the ISP portal and entered the FOID number and birthdate of the recipient. Then you were given a transfer number which proved that the recipient was eligible to receive a firearm after the proper waiting period. No information besides the FOID and date of birth.
I checked the portal today and the information to be entered is about like that on a 4473. Complete name and address of purchaser, i.d. numbers, plus a complete description of the firearm.
If this was ever announced I sure missed it. I'm pretty sure we have transfers only through dealer coming but that information stays with the dealer until he goes out of business.
This information is going direct to the state police.
I'm not naive enough to think the information won't be stored. Or shared.
Sure looks like registration to me.

 

[lilguy]

https://isp.illinois.gov/Media/PressReleaseFile/850

Just released by the ISP. Many, many thousands of Illinois gun owners have possibly life changing decisions to make in the next 3 months.
I've had my FOID card for 52 years. When I first applied for it I asked what the system was for. Was told “ When its time to collect them the powers that be will know where to start”. I’m surprised it took so long.

 

[CapnMac]

Uhm, since this is Legal, can we get a citation of the applicable State Law, please.

Press releases, even by ISP, are just opinions, and not matters of fact nor law.

This is all complicated by the fact that this intersects with a number of present lawsuits, too.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A bunch of off-topic posts have been deleted. We're discussing a particular Illinois law in this thread -- not other laws of other States or countries.

And it would be pointless to try to continue a serious discussion of a law without the actual law, so if no one can provide a proper citation or link to the law, this thread will be closed.

 

[gc70]

The applicable Illinois law (Public Act 102-1116) (see circa page 96) was cited in the second sentence of the Illinois State Police press release cited in the second post in this thread; the Emergency Rule for Assault Weapon Identification issued by the Illinois State Police, as cited in the press release, is also available.

 

[CapnMac]

The applicable Illinois law (Public Act 102-1116)

That's a rather horrible 111 pages to wade through.

This section appears to cover the changes in "everything needs an FFL"

January 1, 2014. The Illinois State Police may adopt rules concerning the implementation of this subsection. The Illinois State Police shall provide the seller or transferor an approval number if the purchaser's Firearm Owner's Identification Card is valid. Approvals issued by the Illinois State Police for the purchase of a firearm pursuant to this subsection are valid for 30 days from the date of issue.

(a-15) The provisions of subsection (a-10) of this Section do not apply to:
(1) transfers that occur at the place of business of a federally licensed firearm dealer, if the federally licensed firearm dealer conducts a background check on the
prospective recipient of the firearm in accordance with Section 3.1 of this Act and follows all other applicable federal, State, and local laws as if he or she were the
seller or transferor of the firearm, although the dealer is not required to accept the firearm into his or her
inventory. The purchaser or transferee may be required by the federally licensed firearm dealer to pay a fee not to exceed $25 $10 per firearm, which the dealer may retain as compensation for performing the functions required under this paragraph, plus the applicable fees authorized by Section 3.1;

Now. there is nothing in that about how the records are handled, and whether they are kept or not. So, we cannot answer "backdoor registration" with that.

Jumping much further along in the document we find the onerous portions of the new (and under numerous lawsuits) AWB

The adoption of emergency rules authorized by Section 5-45 of the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act and this paragraph is deemed to be necessary for the public interest, safety, and welfare.
[ellipsis]
In any administrative, civil, or criminal proceeding in this State, a completed endorsement affidavit submitted to the Illinois State Police by a person under this Section creates a rebuttable presumption that the person is entitled to possess and transport the assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge.
Beginning 90 days after the effective date of this amendatory Act of the 102nd General Assembly, a person authorized under this Section to possess an assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge shall possess such items only:
(1) on private property owned or immediately controlled by the person;
(2) on private property that is not open to the public with the express permission of the person who owns or immediately controls such property;
(3) while on the premises of a licensed firearms dealer or gunsmith for the purpose of lawful repair;
(4) while engaged in the legal use of the assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge at a properly licensed firing range
or sport shooting competition venue; or
(5) while traveling to or from these locations, provided that the assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, or .50 caliber rifle is unloaded and the assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge is enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container.

Which also does not address "registration" per se.

This is under-nice, and might be considered "backdoor" is in a hugely limited sense:

Beginning on January 1, 2024, the person with the endorsement for an assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge or a person authorized under subdivisions (1) through (5) of subsection (e) to possess an assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge may transfer the assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, .50 caliber rifle, or .50 caliber cartridge only to an heir, an individual
residing in another state maintaining it in another state, or a dealer licensed as a federal firearms dealer under Section 923 of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968.

Within 10 days after transfer of the weapon except to an heir, the person shall notify the Illinois State Police of the name and address of the transferee and comply with the requirements of subsection (b) of Section 3 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act.

This may be the "meat" of the argument:

Notwithstanding any other law, information contained in the endorsement affidavit shall be confidential, is exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act, and shall not be disclosed, except to law enforcement agencies acting in the performance of their duties.

It's going to be hard to argue that the process is "transparent" if it cannot be retrieved by a FOIA request.

Now, what we likely need to examine here is the text of the present FOID law, which will better identify what information is required, how it's handled, and whether it's disposed of, and when/how/by.

 

[PapaG]

Regardless of the veering off into assault weapons ban/registration, my post was only concerned with the present process of person to person transfers. That process is pretty clear, unlike the upcoming "process" for the "assault weapons and magazines".
AND, there is still no complete list of assault weapons posted. Don't listen to Todd Vandermiede as his posts are doom and gloom where he lumps 870s st al into the awb.

 

[gc70]

Regardless of the veering off into assault weapons ban/registration, my post was only concerned with the present process of person to person transfers. That process is pretty clear, unlike the upcoming "process" for the "assault weapons and magazines".
AND, there is still no complete list of assault weapons posted. Don't listen to Todd Vandermiede as his posts are doom and gloom where he lumps 870s st al into the awb.

If you don't want people veering off on tangents, you might consider describing exactly what you want to discuss. As several others have previously mentioned, since this arose from a new law, it would help everyone focus on the issue if you pointed to the part of the law that you believe gives rise to the issue.

 

[lilguy]

We must provide an “Endorsement Affidavit.”

Endorsement affidavit means an affidavit electronically executed through the online FOID/FCCL system that REGISTERS an assault weapon, assault weapon attachment, 50 caliber rifle, or 50 caliber cartridges, with the Department as required by Section 24-1.9(d) of criminal code of 2012 [720 ILCS 5/24-1.9(d).

Top of page 5 ISP notice of emergency amendments.

It appears whatever else we think, it all has to be registered now.

 

[CapnMac]

It appears whatever else we think, it all has to be registered now.

That's going to get in to the "what registration means" area. The current law, as it stands, does not allow for any IL transfers of the banned weapons, other than out of State and by direct family bequeathment. The question then becomes, "Is it registration if you cannot buy new, and can only dispose of presently owned?"

Which is a question that's potentially moot as there's strong evidence the AWB will be overturned. It's already near-moot as enforcement is stayed (in a complicated way). It's now grist in the slow-turning wheels of District Court (and likely to wind up in Circuit court).

I don't have a dog in the hunt as I've not been an IL citizen for decades (and do not presume to return in my lifetime), but, all of the linking parts of the legislation that refer to the FOID regulations do cause some concern. What the State Allows it can also Deny--this is an onus I'd not have any citizen of my Nation to endure. The data collection and verification used in the FOID process is probably worth discussion. If not the present topic at hand.

 

[lilguy]

Where is there strong evidence it will be overturned. Ive had folks tell me for 52 years the FOID is unconstitutional.
There are a number of blue state governors
and legislatures that’ll just replace overruled gun control laws with new ones on the spot. The courts take forever to undo legislation.

 

[CapnMac]

Where is there strong evidence it will be overturned. Ive had folks tell me for 52 years the FOID is unconstitutional.

Sorry, strong evidence that the AWB will be overturned, specifically. Potentially in Circuit court which will affect several States, and could have significant impact on AWB in other Circuits.

Now, whether that puts the FOID laws in several States "in jepoardy" is a different question. It seems likely as such laws are not "in keeping with the historical context" of the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The applicable Illinois law (Public Act 102-1116) (see circa page 96) was cited in the second sentence of the Illinois State Police press release cited in the second post in this thread; the Emergency Rule for Assault Weapon Identification issued by the Illinois State Police, as cited in the press release, is also available.

Thank you for posting that.

 

[PapaG]

If you don't want people veering off on tangents, you might consider describing exactly what you want to discuss. As several others have previously mentioned, since this arose from a new law, it would help everyone focus on the issue if you pointed to the part of the law that you believe gives rise to the issue.

I believe my original post did just that. I only referenced person to person transfers and nothing else. If it makes you feel better, next time I’ll refer you to the ISP website….

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I believe my original post did just that. I only referenced person to person transfers and nothing else. If it makes you feel better, next time I’ll refer you to the ISP website….

It's hard to stay focused in IL these days... You did clearly define your topic and I agree with you; it's hard to imagine that transfer data will not be retained in some format that will be retrievable later on regardless of any assurances to the contrary either stated or implied.

 

[lilguy]

In Illinois we’ve gone to no cash bail for law breakers and clamping down on legal gun owners.
Illegal gun owners are protected from incriminating themselves but legal gun owners are required to give up certain rights in order to legally keep guns now.

It gets harder, as time goes on, keeping up with all this anti gun legislation. Im sure that is part of the plan. Make it complicated enough to discourage new folks from getting involved with firearms.

 

[PapaG]

In Illinois we’ve gone to no cash bail for law breakers and clamping down on legal gun owners.
Illegal gun owners are protected from incriminating themselves but legal gun owners are required to give up certain rights in order to legally keep guns now.

It gets harder, as time goes on, keeping up with all this anti gun legislation. Im sure that is part of the plan. Make it complicated enough to discourage new folks from getting involved with firearms.

My boys and I are doing our part as coaches of a high school trap team. Our fear is that some of these sporting shotguns may fall into the AW category.

 

[lilguy]

Yes, that is a worry. The ISP has the unlimited authority to add Items to the controlled list without coming back to the legislature. This may be a hail mary pass. See what happens in the courts with this new regulations and, if it’s upheld, go for everything next.This is their dream scenario.
Good on you for your coaching activities.

 

[JTHunter]

In Illinois we’ve gone to no cash bail for law breakers and clamping down on legal gun owners.
Illegal gun owners are protected from incriminating themselves but legal gun owners are required to give up certain rights in order to legally keep guns now.

It gets harder, as time goes on, keeping up with all this anti gun legislation. Im sure that is part of the plan. Make it complicated enough to discourage new folks from getting involved with firearms.

For those who DO register their "assault weapons", there is an affidavit they MUST check indicating they are registering their guns "voluntarily". In other words, you give up your 5th Amendment rights. However, if you DON'T register the guns (and you can't register them after 1/1/24), you are automatically a criminal. This "registration" is a TRAP. If you sign that affidavit, and try to fight it after the 1st, they will remind you that you surrendered your rights. The affidavit says it's "voluntary" BUT you are doing it under threat of not only prosecution but also "taking" of your property, property you will never be able to sell, transfer to a friend or family member, etc. Unless of course, you "G.T.F.O.O.I." (Get The "F" Out Of IL-ANNOY).
ETA: Read more about it (multiple threads) at Illinois Carry - https://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?/forum/6-illinois-politics/
and https://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?/forum/21-judicial-second-amendment-case-discussion/

 

[PapaG]

It just gets better and better, or worse depending on your 2A leanings. In my CCW renewal class today I learned that an additional hurdle was added to Illinois regulations regarding person to person sales/transfers. You can't. At least not without doing it at a FFL dealers shop.

 

[lilguy]

And they are tracking ammunition purchase’s through the FOID system. FFLs believe ultimately this will be used to follow the trail to unregistered semiautomatic weapons.

 

[tactikel]

I registered, I refuse to risk a felony . Is this back door registration? of course it is. I’m sure I’m on the list for confiscation whenever it occurs.