Background Check Rule

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Buddy

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Kershaw, SC
I was in Lugoff SC today and walked into a pawn/gun shop and asked if they had any blackpowder guns and the man behind the counter told me that they didn't stock them because they wouldn't sell. He then added that not stocking them cut down on arguments. When I asked about that, he told me that the shop had a rule to do background checks on all blackpowder gun purchases and that people tended to argue about that policy. I let him know, in a diplomatic manner, that I didn't blame them and then thought to myself "no wonder you can't sell them"!!!
 
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Pretty sure I've been in the store you mentioned as I believe it is the only Pawn in Lugoff now. I've been in there a couple of times and the owner/manager? came across to me as very strange. The first time, I looked at a S&W revolver that was obviously reblued. Stampings were almost buffed out and the hammer and trigger had been blued as well. Was still interested in the gun as a shooter and when I asked if the gun had been reblued, he got very defensive and close to rude. A few months later he started advertising on Armslist and I saw another gun that I was interested in, so I stopped by on my way through and tried to negotiate a purchase. He got very rude again. All I did was asked if there was any wiggle room in his price and would he entertain an offer. Said he didn't waste his time writing a price tag just to change the price. Life is too short. I hope you visit the Gun Vault right up the road in Elgin. Good people and they make you feel welcome and appreciated.
 
I walked into Walmart 10 years ago and bought a bp ml for $50. Paid for it and they said have a nice day. Now that same store today does not sell any bp stuff.
 
Be glad you are not in Illinois. BP treated exactly the same as modern guns. NICS, three day wait. And you have to have the state issued unconstitutionally mandated Firearms Owners Identification Card you applied for and waited two or more months for to buy it. Then, if you let your card expire, you will be told you have 48 hours to turn your guns in or dispose of them in an approved manner.
But don't get me started.
 
Pretty sure I've been in the store you mentioned as I believe it is the only Pawn in Lugoff now. I've been in there a couple of times and the owner/manager? came across to me as very strange. The first time, I looked at a S&W revolver that was obviously reblued. Stampings were almost buffed out and the hammer and trigger had been blued as well. Was still interested in the gun as a shooter and when I asked if the gun had been reblued, he got very defensive and close to rude. A few months later he started advertising on Armslist and I saw another gun that I was interested in, so I stopped by on my way through and tried to negotiate a purchase. He got very rude again. All I did was asked if there was any wiggle room in his price and would he entertain an offer. Said he didn't waste his time writing a price tag just to change the price. Life is too short. I hope you visit the Gun Vault right up the road in Elgin. Good people and they make you feel welcome and appreciated.

Yes, it's the same place. We must be neighbors, sort of. I live about 25 miles north of Camden. Have you seen the gun collection at the Camden Archives and Museum?
 
When I asked about that, he told me that the shop had a rule to do background checks on all blackpowder gun purchases and that people tended to argue about that policy

FLAG ON THE PLAY.JPG Flag on the play...., and the call is against the pawn shop.... BALDERDASH, 15 yards and loss of down...….

By "background check" I'm interpreting that to mean a NICS (The National Instant Criminal Background Check System) check.
since there is no firearm purchase I'm not aware of any way for a NICS check to legally be done in the OP's scenario
.

That's because he's not.;) He's probably using something like Intelius, OR he is claiming to be doing a "background check" and is charging for it, but isn't doing anything of the sort. Remember, he got upset when asked if the firearm was "reblued"..... sounds like the proverbial "Kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar". When customers were getting upset about his silly "policy" and he found he couldn't charge the fee... he got all butt-hurt and simply stopped selling the guns.

LD
 
One of my fav pawnshops here in southeast missouri says that all inlines ,not sidelock,but inlines,have to do a background check.
Guess who told him that?
The local PD.
SMH....
 
I have a clean background, but the reason I wouldn't consent to a "background check" on a blackpowder firearm is because that is a inconvenience I didn't go to the store to have to go through. If I'm buying a modern gun, I bring everything I need to put the money down and make the purchase. If I'm buying blackpowder, or blackpowder accessories, then I'll have my ID and some cash but i'm just out for a casual outing, not anything too big.
Like for example when I bought my katana, I was just driving around, went into a pawnshop, saw the katana and asked to look at it. I left the store with it, but it was all a easy, casual outing. If I was told I had to do a 30 minute process, along with a national check on me, along with proof of ID, etc. I just would've walked out of there and went elsehwhere. Blackpowder guns are in the same catergory for me. They're curios, and not something that should require Federal permission to buy.
Sounds like this pawn shop owner wants anything to make extra money, and if he can't sell, he won't go through the inconvenience of moving them around the store.
 
The only thing i'd understand from the owners perspective is if he has a problem with criminals/people up to no good who know they can buy blackpowder arms without NCIS check, so he decides to check on all gun sales anyway. However that is when you should use sellers discretion.
 
The only thing i'd understand from the owners perspective is if he has a problem with criminals/people up to no good who know they can buy blackpowder arms without NCIS check, so he decides to check on all gun sales anyway. However that is when you should use sellers discretion.
We have enough trouble with anti gun people without the local gun store making up ever more restrictive policies. As far as I know, anything that requires permission from the government is no longer a right. It’s become something else. I know what that something else is...
 
I wont consent to a check on muzzleloaders for a couple of reasons.
1) they dont require it,and if a shop wants to run one,and arent smart enough to k ow the laws,then they arent smart enough to be selling guns period, and dont deserve my money.
2) too many checks in a short amount of time,will get you flagged real quick
 
The only thing i'd understand from the owners perspective is if he has a problem with criminals/people up to no good who know they can buy blackpowder arms without NCIS check, so he decides to check on all gun sales anyway .

Ah but my point was in pointing out, he has to be using "Intelius" or something, is he CAN'T do a background check as the police do. He can't call the cops and say "Hey I'd like to do a background check on this guy before I sell him a black powder gun. Can you run him through NCIC please?" The police cannot legally do that and IF during a random NCIC audit, and they do random audits all the time, if they find the officer has violated the law and NCIC rules, they get booted off the system. There are fines associated with abuse of NCIC and since it's above the local and state level, they have no problem leveling large fines on departments where even one officer or clerk has abused NCIC.

So he's relying IF he actually does backgrounds, on a private service, which if it was that good, would probably be contracting out to actual law enforcement, right?

Criminals are not buying black powder guns over-the-counter, they are getting them through the internet, on the rare occasions that they get them at all. It's more common to see airsoft guns then black powder guns by far. or even very obsolete brake open "parlor pistols" being used, rather than Remington or Colt repros.

LD
 
I think backround checks for firearms is silly. If someone with a criminal record wants to buy a gun and a store turns them away then they will just get a gun via other ways. Whether illegally or through a 3rd party...the backround check at a store wont keep someone from getting a gun. And making guns harder to attain and treating them as "dangerous weapons" instead of as a tool just adds to the appeal to people who want to use them for wrong. Guns should be easier to attain in my opinion...if more people have them then therr wouldnt be so many "victims" due to them being able to protect themselves and criminals will think twice about commiting a crime knowing most people are armed . my opinion that is
 
I had something similar happen to me about ten years ago; saw an 1860, haggled a bit, settled on a price, and said Done. Then the guy said NCIS... I said OK, if that’s your policy I have nothing to hide. Passed the check and the guy went and wrote up a slip and came back for payment. Line 2 was 20$ for background check... No Joy! I said eat it or no deal.

The proprietor wouldn’t budge, despite knowing the whole charade was unnecessary... and I said i’d walk... to which he said he’d spent half an hour on this already. I said Tough Situation, I could have been gone 25 minutes ago and you’d have been paid!

Long story short, that shop went under and some people have no business sense...
 
Ah but my point was in pointing out, he has to be using "Intelius" or something, is he CAN'T do a background check as the police do. He can't call the cops and say "Hey I'd like to do a background check on this guy before I sell him a black powder gun. Can you run him through NCIC please?" The police cannot legally do that and IF during a random NCIC audit, and they do random audits all the time, if they find the officer has violated the law and NCIC rules, they get booted off the system. There are fines associated with abuse of NCIC and since it's above the local and state level, they have no problem leveling large fines on departments where even one officer or clerk has abused NCIC.

So he's relying IF he actually does backgrounds, on a private service, which if it was that good, would probably be contracting out to actual law enforcement, right?

Criminals are not buying black powder guns over-the-counter, they are getting them through the internet, on the rare occasions that they get them at all. It's more common to see airsoft guns then black powder guns by far. or even very obsolete brake open "parlor pistols" being used, rather than Remington or Colt repros.

LD

I want to point out that more than a handful of states do their own background checks and act as the link between the NICS system and the gun shop.
My state doesn't charge to do background checks and has its own check system.

"States may implement their own NICS programs. Such states become the point of contact (POC) between their FFL dealers and the NICS. A few partial-POC states run FFL handgun checks, while the FBI runs long gun checks. FFLs in other, non-POC states access the NICS directly through the FBI.
Authorized local, state, tribal, and federal agencies can update NICS Index data via the NCIC front end, or by electronic batch files" --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Functionality

Another issue that I'll mention is that some gun shops may be concerned about liability or their insurance carrier policy regarding any crime or violation committed by anyone who they may sell a black powder or any other gun to, whether antique or not.
If a shop is sued, then they or their insurance carrier may still need to defend the suit, no matter how frivolous.
There may be other liability reasons why they want a record of who they did and didn't sell any type of gun to.
If the guns get stolen from the buyer or there's a false claim of true ownership than that also provides a record that a sale transaction occurred.
Why do they put serial numbers on black powder guns at all?
Doesn't it involve liability?

I've cooperated by filling out a Federal form for a couple of shops whether they are actually doing a background check or not.
I haven't bought one in a while, but I don't mind the paperwork as long as they're not charging for it.
I don't know what the local Cabela's is doing in that regard now days but I try not to let their red tape interfere with my freedom to decide what I want or don't want to purchase.
To me it's a business deal rather than a political football.
One local gun shop here has a sign that states that they can refuse a sale to anyone that they choose to which is hard to argue with if they do have that right.
If a shop doesn't charge for the check and still goes out of business then they've got more problems than how they manage their black powder and antique gun sales.
I've tried to be an equal opportunity buyer.
 
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I want to point out that more than a handful of states do their own background checks and act as the link between the NICS system and the gun shop.
My state doesn't charge to do background checks and has its own check system.

"States may implement their own NICS programs. Such states become the point of contact (POC) between their FFL dealers and the NICS. A few partial-POC states run FFL handgun checks, while the FBI runs long gun checks. FFLs in other, non-POC states access the NICS directly through the FBI.
Authorized local, state, tribal, and federal agencies can update NICS Index data via the NCIC front end, or by electronic batch files" --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Functionality

Another issue that I'll mention is that some gun shops may be concerned about liability or their insurance carrier policy regarding any crime or violation committed by anyone who they may sell a black powder or any other gun to, whether antique or not.
If a shop is sued, then they or their insurance carrier may still need to defend the suit, no matter how frivolous.
There may be other liability reasons why they want a record of who they did and didn't sell any type of gun to.
If the guns get stolen from the buyer or there's a false claim of true ownership than that also provides a record that a sale transaction occurred.
Why do they put serial numbers on black powder guns at all?
Doesn't it involve liability?

I've cooperated by filling out a Federal form for a couple of shops whether they are actually doing a background check or not.
I haven't bought one in a while, but I don't mind the paperwork as long as they're not charging for it.
I don't know what the local Cabela's is doing in that regard now days but I try not to let their red tape interfere with my freedom to decide what I want or don't want to purchase.
To me it's a business deal rather than a political football.
One local gun shop here has a sign that states that they can refuse a sale to anyone that they choose to which is hard to argue with if they do have that right.
If a shop doesn't charge for the check and still goes out of business then they've got more problems than how they manage their black powder and antique gun sales.
I've tried to be an equal opportunity buyer.

You’re a,pretty level headed guy... I’ve been called that too but whenever I sense a violation of the 2nd amendment (or any of the enumerated rights frankly) it gets my back up. I know this and it’s something I am just fine with. (My wife sometimes has a tough time with that particular character defect) It’s not a political football to me. It’s far more serious than that. Or it seems so to me. In Virginia today a large group of people stood up against the tyrannies large and small that were being foist upon them. I’m with them. That’s my final word in this thread, back to the fun stuff I hope.
 
"States may implement their own NICS programs. Such states become the point of contact (POC) between their FFL dealers and the NICS. A few partial-POC states run FFL handgun checks, while the FBI runs long gun checks. FFLs in other, non-POC states access the NICS directly through the FBI.
Authorized local, state, tribal, and federal agencies can update NICS Index data via the NCIC front end, or by electronic batch files" --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Functionality

Another issue that I'll mention is that some gun shops may be concerned about liability or their insurance carrier policy regarding any crime or violation committed by anyone who they may sell a black powder or any other gun to, whether antique or not.
If a shop is sued, then they or their insurance carrier may still need to defend the suit, no matter how frivolous.
There may be other liability reasons why they want a record of who they did and didn't sell any type of gun to.
If the guns get stolen from the buyer or there's a false claim of true ownership than that also provides a record that a sale transaction occurred.
Why do they put serial numbers on black powder guns at all?
Doesn't it involve liability?

Ah but there is a big difference checking local court results which are public record, and doing it via NCIC which even if the local law enforcement has access, they are prohibited from doing UNLESS the local laws require them to do so...so in States where a black powder firearm IS a firearm by definition, that's one thing, in this case it's not a firearm by legal definition, so that isn't done. Further most of the states that don't require background check on BP guns (if not all) won't take the time as that costs money when it's not the law....

Plus I was unaware that courts "held harmless" gunshops that sell modern serialized guns when a background check IS done...oh wait.....

Because..., as for liability, you going to be sued if somebody wants to bring suit. Period. :D Insurance companies pay off this stuff all the time.
Having serialized guns because they are made in Italy and Italian law requires such or the companies ship them for sale into nations which require them to be serialized is not an indication that liability is in any way mitigated.;)
You sell a gun to a "law abiding" citizen according to your "check", who then is charged with a crime using the gun, well you're still getting sued.
Your shop gets shoplifted and then the black powder gun is used in a crime, your shop should've had better controls on the merchandise, you're getting sued.
Your shop got broken into and a black powder gun was stolen and then used in a crime, well the shop should've been harder to burglarize, so you're getting sued.
An act of God like a hurricane or tornado blows the doors off your shop, and somebody helps himself to a black powder gun, well again your shop should've been stronger built, or you picked the location to lease for your shop and didn't figure in the possibility that such could happen, since it did, you're getting sued.
You sold the gun to Joe Six Pack, from whom it was stolen and then used in a crime. Well he wouldn't have had it where it was when it was stolen, if YOU hadn't sold it to him...and you didn't think to instruct him on how he should securely store it...you're getting sued.

You don't want liability for guns....don't sell them...any sort.

LD
 
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Be glad you are not in Illinois. BP treated exactly the same as modern guns. NICS, three day wait. And you have to have the state issued unconstitutionally mandated Firearms Owners Identification Card you applied for and waited two or more months for to buy it. Then, if you let your card expire, you will be told you have 48 hours to turn your guns in or dispose of them in an approved manner.
But don't get me started.
Yup. I lived there the first half of my life, before I got a real life in a state that at least respects some of my rights.
 
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