Bad Gun Handling

[DustyGmt]

Why would anyone give someone new to firearms a gun with a "hair trigger". The safety on a revolver is the trigger. If the hammer was cocked, it must have been being shot in SA, so why stop her with the hammer cocked? Initial practice should have been with a empty gun. I see so many red flags here.

So you're asserting that it was dumb to teach somebody how to shoot the only gun they will ever own. Okay. It was a colt cobra, she clocked the hammer after I signaled her to stop.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Absolutely. You can't just simply tell someone the basic rules and expect them to remember and practice them. That's not how humans work. Practice with an unloaded weapon or better yet a toy or blue gun or airsoft pistol. Have them move around with it and get used to being aware of where the muzzle is. Have them dry fire for a while. And, FWIW, (since you mentioned "even a guy") in my experience as a CHL instructor, the worst offenders when it comes to muzzle discipline violations are guys who have been casual hunters most of their life. They know enough to operate the weapon, but not enough to respect it.

Thank you very much. I was waiting for someone to mention blue guns. That is one big plus I give to my first class, they made us manipulate the blue guns for quite a while before letting us touch a real one. I got yelled at for putting my finger on the trigger of the blue gun, that was enough to burn it into my consciousness.

 

[old lady new shooter]

So you're asserting that it was dumb to teach somebody how to shoot the only gun they will ever own. Okay. It was a colt cobra, she clocked the hammer after I signaled her to stop.

My first gun is a 4" 686 Plus, which I have never shot single action, because I can't cock it with just a thumb. IOW I've always shot it with the full 12-pound trigger pull, which is pretty much impossible to complete accidentally. Recently I got the new Colt King Cobra, I wanted something carryable now that I moved to AZ, and was thrilled to learn the trigger is supposedly only 9 lbs, because I am not getting any younger. With snapcaps it felt wonderful. With real rounds, the trigger is very nice up until the last moment where you have to actually fire the shot, where it gets much heavier. I did read at least one review that mentioned this. Thankfully this one I can easily cock with a thumb, because definitely for one-handed shooting I have to use SA. I'm getting a little more used to that now but it goes off REALLY fast. (Supposedly it's 5 lbs in SA.) I'm rambling, but it was just background for what I want to say:

I think a newbie should shoot only DA for two reasons: #1 is safety, #2 is that with a 12-lb trigger you're pretty much forced to pull the trigger straight back etc and will therefore develop good habits, you can't develop a flinch etc.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-Nowadays I tend to start folks off with airsoft single shots.
Minimizes the chance of blood.

 

[buck460XVR]

So you're asserting that it was dumb to teach somebody how to shoot the only gun they will ever own.

No. I'm asserting that she was being improperly taught how to shoot the only gun they will ever own.

She violated two of the most important rules of gun safety.....I guessing because she wasn't initially trained in them properly.

• Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
• Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

  I think it all boils down to was just a stupid life threatening mistake from someone inexperienced with guns and my inattentiveness to some degree or another.

  .....yep.

 

[DustyGmt]

No. I'm asserting that she was being improperly taught how to shoot the only gun they will ever own.

She violated two of the most important rules of gun safety.....I guessing because she wasn't initially trained in them properly.

• Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
• Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. .....yep.

So what are the other many red flags that jumped out at you in terms of negligence/improper instruction. Keep in mind the average person/shooter. Didnt have snap caps, dont hold any certifications to instruct, etc... We had about 10 minutes of all the safe handling basics. I think how I went about it was reasonable and safe, I'm not a negligent person, she disobeyed my explicit instructions. In the future however I would take extra precations.

 

[luzyfuerza]

When I teach new shooters (scouts, young women, and adults) the first gun they handle isn't a gun; its an old garand rifle stock. Kind of a poor man's blue gun.

Also, I never start new shooters on handguns, even if a handgun might be the only gun they want at the moment or the only type that they think that they'll ever own. I help them learn and demonstrate muzzle awareness, safe muzzle control, and trigger finger awareness with a long gun first.

While they're learning these skills, I'm right at their shoulder, ready to block unsafe muzzle motion. Every new shooter gets this help, and, in my experience, almost all of them need it.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

In 2012 I took a handgun to Specialty Sports in Colorado Springs to have some work done on it. I had already called ahead and the Smith knew I was coming.

I walked to the back of the store where he was working on a hunting rifle. He had the rifle in hand and was looking at the scope, I introduced myself and he aimed the rifle right at me. (please note I did not say "pointed it at me" I said aimed)

I stepped to the side and told him that I had the gun here to be worked on and that it was in the box with the part to be changed and that the slide was locked back if he cared to check the chamber. He aimed at me again and told me to just leave the gun on the counter and he’d get to it in a few minutes.

I stepped to the side again and said OK sure I just wanted to make sure you knew the gun was here and he did it again.

Long story short he did the work, I got the gun back in just a few minutes, the work was well done at a reasonable price AND NOT ONE DIME OF MY MONEY WILL EVER FIND ITS WAY INTO SPECIALTY SPORTS IN COLORADO SPRINGS AGAIN.

 

[DustyGmt]

When I teach new shooters (scouts, young women, and adults) the first gun they handle isn't a gun; its an old garand rifle stock. Kind of a poor man's blue gun.

While they're learning these skills, I'm right at their shoulder, ready to block unsafe muzzle motion.

Good call. Yeah, 20/20 hindsight, I would have done things differently.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

In 2012 I took a handgun to Specialty Sports in Colorado Springs to have some work done on it. I had already called ahead and the Smith knew I was coming.

I walked to the back of the store where he was working on a hunting rifle. He had the rifle in hand and was looking at the scope, I introduced myself and he aimed the rifle right at me. (please note I did not say "pointed it at me" I said aimed)

I stepped to the side and told him that I had the gun here to be worked on and that it was in the box with the part to be changed and that the slide was locked back if he cared to check the chamber. He aimed at me again and told me to just leave the gun on the counter and he’d get to it in a few minutes.

I stepped to the side again and said OK sure I just wanted to make sure you knew the gun was here and he did it again.

Long story short he did the work, I got the gun back in just a few minutes, the work was well done at a reasonable price AND NOT ONE DIME OF MY MONEY WILL EVER FIND ITS WAY INTO SPECIALTY SPORTS IN COLORADO SPRINGS AGAIN.

I'm really puzzled by this. Did he think you were there to rob him? Did he think it was funny? Did he give any indication why he did this?

If I ran or worked for a business where I interreacted with my customer base, I can't imagine doing something like this once by accident without profuse apologies, much less three times intentionally.

Honestly in the same situation, I would likely have darted out of the way and taken cover. I don't know that I could have even completed the transaction, even though I'm quite comfortable around guns and have been muzzle swept multiple times in gun shops. I've had a gun pulled on me before also, and my stomach knotted up pretty good.

If this man was the owner I'd never set foot in there again. If he wasn't, I'd ask to speak to the owner or for a phone number I could reach him at to tell him about the incident. Someone who does that is dangerous.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I'm really puzzled by this. Did he think you were there to rob him? Did he think it was funny? Did he give any indication why he did this?

If I ran or worked for a business where I interreacted with my customer base, I can't imagine doing something like this once by accident without profuse apologies, much less three times intentionally.

Honestly in the same situation, I would likely have darted out of the way and taken cover. I don't know that I could have even completed the transaction, even though I'm quite comfortable around guns and have been muzzle swept multiple times in gun shops. I've had a gun pulled on me before also, and my stomach knotted up pretty good.

If this man was the owner I'd never set foot in there again. If he wasn't, I'd ask to speak to the owner or for a phone number I could reach him at to tell him about the incident. Someone who does that is dangerous.

He wasn't the owner and I never have set foot in there again.

At the time it was the only place in town to get the work done.

I could see the rifle, the bolt had been removed.

He was being an ass.

 

[straightshooterjake]

So what are the other many red flags that jumped out at you in terms of negligence/improper instruction. Keep in mind the average person/shooter. Didnt have snap caps, dont hold any certifications to instruct, etc... We had about 10 minutes of all the safe handling basics. I think how I went about it was reasonable and safe, I'm not a negligent person, she disobeyed my explicit instructions. In the future however I would take extra precations.

I am a Range Safety Officer at a private club where members can bring guests, and I am also an instructor. After you work with and observe lots of beginning shooters, you get a sense of the likely kinds of mistakes and problems that happen. And the common problems are not all things you could predict without lots of real world experience.

I wrote an article to help people who are planning to bring new shooters to the range. My hope is to avoid some common pitfalls. The article is available here:

http://straightshooterjake.blogspot.com/p/new-shooters-complete.html

The article was also discussed in this thread:

https://thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/articles-about-bringing-new-shooters-to-the-range.810540/

 

[DustyGmt]

I'm really puzzled by this. Did he think you were there to rob him? Did he think it was funny? Did he give any indication why he did this?

If I ran or worked for a business where I interreacted with my customer base, I can't imagine doing something like this once by accident without profuse apologies, much less three times intentionally.

Honestly in the same situation, I would likely have darted out of the way and taken cover. I don't know that I could have even completed the transaction, even though I'm quite comfortable around guns and have been muzzle swept multiple times in gun shops. I've had a gun pulled on me before also, and my stomach knotted up pretty good.

If this man was the owner I'd never set foot in there again. If he wasn't, I'd ask to speak to the owner or for a phone number I could reach him at to tell him about the incident. Someone who does that is dangerous.

Some people are psychos. I recall an incident at the gun shop in the town I live in, not my gun shop though. It was shortly after hurricane irene, there were alot of road repair crews from a few states south, these guys that came into the store were from Massachusetts if I had to guess. Anyway, it's a general store that also sells guns. When these guys walked in, they seemed pretty amped to see the guns. Hispanic, covered in tats, had they not mentioned right there in front of me the girls name that they intended to send in to straw purchase I might not have thought anything of them, but they were clearly prohibited persons, and kind of shady acting.

So they carried on at the counter for a while being kind of loud and boisterous saying things like "you ain't gonna **** with me while I got the heater" and other ridiculous gangbanger type nonsense, finger guns pointed sideways going "blap, blap, blap".


Anyway, behind the gun case by the ammo shelf is a lil door that looks like it leads into a lil closet, well it's actually a lil office and the owner was in there listening. He stepped out, with a 12 ga in hand he racks it and points it about 4 inches away from one of their heads and asked them "what do you fellas think about this one, you like it?". They both froze, turned pale and booked, dont think they even paid for the Mountain Dews they initially came in for, but you couldnt hold that against them. The owner looked at me and gave me a psycho grin and stepped back into his office.


I actually thought it was funny.

 

[Jgjgjg]

That's scary.

I went shooting with my dad once and when we were done we both sat down to clean our guns. I was cleaning my second one and my dad was reassembling his. I hear him talking through it, he thinks out loud. I looked over at him just in time to see him pull the trigger to ensure function, with it pointed directly at me.

To say I was a little mad is probably an understatement.

All safe handling rules are critical, but I feel taking your finger off the trigger and muzzle direction have to come first.

On Spotify: Christopher Titus, start with “Lamborghini life”

 

[Trey Veston]

Maybe Mom needs a different teacher.

Family teaching family does not always work out.

Totally agree. While I have been handling firearms since I was a youngster, and can outshoot just about anyone, I am horrible at relaying my knowledge and skill to others and diagnosing issues.

Took my girlfriend to the family cabin last winter to teach her to shoot since she expressed an interest. While she exhibited safe gun handling and appeared to be doing everything right, she couldn't hit anything with open sights.

Stepped her up to my G19 with a red dot and she started killing cans left and right.

A few months later, a friend of our's dad was holding a new shooter clinic and I was asked to assist. My girlfriend volunteered to join the class since she was frustrated that she couldn't hit anything with open sights.

The instructor figured out that she was right-handed but left-eye dominant. Now she can hit properly with open sights.

 

[RioShooter]

I have a few "buddies" who I flat out dont trust with guns. They drink, they rattle off 20-30 rounds out in the woods with no skill or accuracy goal and think they can impress people like they are "knowledgable gun guys" and have seen them try to "teach" girls they're with that they're trying to impress about guns, etc... I cant be around people who drink as it is because I hate to be the only responsible party to a bunch of people with wetbrain, add a gun to the equation.....later man

A guy trying to impress his girlfriend with his gun handling skills has got to be one of the most dangerous guys to be around. Whenever I see that happening, I walk to the clubhouse.

 

[rskent]

I think you're right. Muzzle discipline over all. A finger in the trigger guard, especially on a single action or even a double action revolver doesn't bother me. In fact, it's natural. No one would accuse this guy of poor gun handling, no one old enough to recognize him anyway.

Clearly, I am not old enough. Who is it?

 

[Sav .250]

Some people don't have the acumen to handle firearms. That's OK. There are many other types of self-defense products that can increase their safety without the fatal mistake possibility of firearms.

Perfectly stated ! That`s why I re-posted it...…………………………..

 

[Kevin Keith]

Clearly, I am not old enough. Who is it?

Skeeter Skelton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeeter_Skelton

 

[rskent]

Skeeter Skelton

OK, thanks. I have heard of him and even read some of his stuff. Never saw a picture though.

 

[DustyGmt]

Absolutely. You can't just simply tell someone the basic rules and expect them to remember and practice them. That's not how humans work. Practice with an unloaded weapon or better yet a toy or blue gun or airsoft pistol. Have them move around with it and get used to being aware of where the muzzle is. Have them dry fire for a while. And, FWIW, (since you mentioned "even a guy") in my experience as a CHL instructor, the worst offenders when it comes to muzzle discipline violations are guys who have been casual hunters most of their life. They know enough to operate the weapon, but not enough to respect it.

For sure. As a CHL instructor you must have thought my story pretty cringey. I dont know how I did it, but looking back I see that even though I was very thorough and explicit in my instruction, she just simply didnt have the time to competently take ownership of a weapon, much less carry it.

I know what I was thinking and it seemed reasonable at the time, but I am safe and competent with a firearm not because I have received formal commercial training but because I spend alot of time shooting, reading, thinking about these things and how to do things the right way, your average non gun person....not so much. Not sure how I was able to crap the proverbial bed on this one but like I said lesson learned.

 

[FlSwampRat]

I just did an article for our company's page on handling firearms. This is the first bit of it:

Look! There's a gun sitting there. Is it loaded? How can I tell?
First, anyone who is trained and experienced in handling firearms will tell you that every gun is to be treated as loaded, EVEN AFTER YOU HAVE CHECKED AND FOUND IT TO BE UNLOADED.

This is to prevent those ooopsy-bangs previously discussed.

Some rules for safe gun handling:
1. Assume all guns to be loaded at all times
2. Do not, ever, point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at anything you do not wish to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready for a boom.
4. Even assuming the gun to be loaded at all times, it should be checked every time it is picked up or before it is put away.
5. If someone else checks a firearm to be sure it is clear (unloaded) and then hands it to you, you should check it once more, they may not be competent.

In a previous article I'd referred to AD's as ooopsy-bangs and guys in the company said that was their new fave term for it and I have to call AD's ooopsy-bangs from now on.

 

[buck460XVR]

We had about 10 minutes of all the safe handling basics. I think how I went about it was reasonable and safe

That's a lot to cover in ten minutes with someone who has zero or very little knowledge of firearms to start with. I'm sure you realize that now.

I'm not a negligent person, she disobeyed my explicit instructions.

She's your mom. Odds are she's not used to taking "explicit" instructions from you, nor is she used to being harshly admonished from you. Did you tell her that on your signal to put the gun down, barrel pointed in a safe direction? Like others, I would suggest she take a better form of gun safety course, even if it's just on online hunter safety course. I help with hunter safety classes around here and since this qualifies for the training needed for a CWC permit, females who have never shot a gun, have become a big part of the program. Many are there because they became frustrated with their husbands/boyfriends at the range.

 

[Ram1500]

Went to qualification one day. Before class a new deputy brings up a brand new in box Glock 10. Asks me could you show me how operates. She had been carrying a 686. I tell her no to go ask the range master. My hair on the back of my neck stands up. I tell myself do not be near on any of the drills.

So the range master gives her the low down on how to operate the weapon. Why he let her continue I have no clue. Well her group is up. The range master positions a safety officer behind her. The command to make the weapons hot is issued. She inserts a loaded mag into her weapon and does not rack the slide. The safety officer calls a stop as he saw the issue. He asks why. She says her weapon is an auto loader. It loads itself. They still let her continue.

Time to shoot the combat course. By this time I had gotten as far as I could from her. I had made sure I was not in her group. Well briefly into her course the safety officer calls a stop. She was attempting to shoot behind cover when the slide caught the bridge of her nose and she flung her weapon away. Her face was red with blood. Stitches were in order. Why she was allowed to continue is a matter of a politically correct sheriff trying to integrate females into the department qualified or not not caring if they placed the public in danger. Several of these people got "special range time" away from everyone else to qualify. Just one story of many interesting things I observed involving officers using weapons.

 

[DustyGmt]

That's a lot to cover in ten minutes with someone who has zero or very little knowledge of firearms to start with. I'm sure you realize that now.








She's your mom. Odds are she's not used to taking "explicit" instructions from you, nor is she used to being harshly admonished from you. Did you tell her that on your signal to put the gun down, barrel pointed in a safe direction? Like others, I would suggest she take a better form of gun safety course, even if it's just on online hunter safety course. I help with hunter safety classes around here and since this qualifies for the training needed for a CWC permit, females who have never shot a gun, have become a big part of the program. Many are there because they became frustrated with their husbands/boyfriends at the range.

On its face, it seems like a relatively straightforward task, to show somebody some of the very basics of shooting a pistol. Keep gun pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, how to load/reload, etc... we went over that with the aid of detailed visual demonstrations of what safe handling is, and holy crap, if I could have predicted that she would point the gun straight at herself I definitely would have went about things in a much different way, as I have acknowledged multiple times at this point.

As far as not being able to take "explicit" instructions from her son. Maybe. I'm thinking she probably would benefit from somebody else instructing her but at the time her knowing that guns and shooting, safe handling etcetera, she knows that is my domain and she seemed willing and attentive. Sadly though, in terms of going through a safety course or any training requiring a substantial time commitment, I dont feel she is interested enough and would likely pass. She just doesnt care about or even particularly like guns. I tried, for now it just didnt work out...