Ban Extremist websites, too

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Tirod

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We are all aware of the emphasis on banning certain firearms which is simply a continuing effort by the anti gunners. Using the current "crisis" they are suggesting that since guns are a common denominator then guns should be banned.

That is a Constitutional issue - but not the only one involved. There is another and it's very much part and parcel of the Sudden Jihad shooter's profile - the internet, and specifically, pro-extremist web sites.

It's a very frequent part of what drives these shooters to do what they do.

Therefore in your calls or communication ask why these websites are being allowed to be accessed in the US. If they are a demonstrated threat to soliciting shooters - then ban them. Take them down. Screen them. Deny access.

Google has done that for the Chinese government, right?

Yes, there are 1st Amendment issues - there are 2d Amendment issues being thrown under the bus, too. The point is to make it a point and raise public consciousness that we aren't doing anything about it.

Ask why non citizen religious leaders aren't being denied visas, too. Present the issue as part of a BALANCED solution and press for why one Constitutional Amendment has to take the brunt of the loss when the abuse of others are equally culpable.

We are engaged in a war of words and allowing the spotlight to rest on just gun control is too focused. We need to spread the light to include what other Rights we should be restricting, too - which makes it an argument about Constitutional Rights in general, not just the third rail of gun rights alone.

Of course few will support restricting the 1st Amendment - but raising the issue diverts from the agenda, and highlights a failure in the overall Security strategy.

These shooters have predominantly viewed extremist websites FIRST - the guns came later. What should we be banning?

Posted here because not guns, activism. Raise the question.
 
The ACLU has opposed watch/no fly lists because they violate the due process guaranteed by the BOR.

Point out that the banners want to restrict the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments to the BOR not just the 2nd!

We need to work with those implications to turn people against the proponents of infringing on the 2nd.
 
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Lord, I hope this is satire...

...because it isn't to an awful lot of people.

TCB
 
I am sure no follower of ISIS, but including persons on watch lists or "no-fly" lists from buying or owning guns is a VERY slippery slope. The people who wrote the current federal gun law (bad as it may seem to some) were careful to treat the ownership of guns as a right, one which can be taken away ONLY after conviction in a court of law of a specific crime and, of course,, the person involved knowing of the restrictions imposed on him.

But watch lists or no-fly lists are different. They are compiled in secret, by non-elected government officials, based on no publicly known criteria, no due process, no open accusation, no ability to face the accusers, no defense, no process of appeal other than filing suit against the government, which will not disclose any of their rationale or process. Someone's name can be added to or removed from such a list based on hearsay, false information, religion, political party, opposition to the party in power, displaying the wrong bumper sticker, anything that may displease a president or his unelected minions.

Ever expressed anything less that total love for President Obama? Your name can go on a "prohibited persons list" and your guns will be confiscated.

I am sure (I hope) that such a proposed change would not affect me, or anyone else on here. Would it be worth taking the rights of some people in order to save lives? Maybe, but I wonder if the news media would be so quick to dismiss gun rights if their own precious "freedom of the press" were at stake. It might be; I heard a proposal tonight, which appeared to be serious, to ban "suspected terrorists" from appearing on television or radio and writing for publication, or having access to Facebook, Twitter, e-mail, or copy machines.

Jim
 
The ACLU has opposed watch/no fly lists because they violate the due process guaranteed by the BOR.

Point out that the banners want to restrict the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments to the BOR not just the 2nd!

We need to work with those implications to turn people against the proponents of infringing on the 2nd.

Due process is an important argument with respect to both the no fly and terror watch list, but in the case of the latter this is a major national security concern as well. No one should be able to test if they are on the secret watch list by attempting to buy a gun!

Mike
 
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That's an interesting Modest Proposal. What would you do about Tor?

Barring non-citizen religious leaders would stop any further visits by the Pope, which might make some Americans unhappy. Or did you mean just certain sorts of religious leaders? Who decides which religions are okay and which aren't?

I think I'll stick with the First Amendment. It's a classic and I like it.
 
You are right about the fact that we should use discretion about who we let into the country. But I think attacking other parts of the constitution just to make a point or balance something out is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING!!! If they start banning websites, this is how it will go down: One day they ban Jihadi websites... the next they will ban any websites considered "racist"... By their definition, half of the Republican party is "deplorable" and "racist". So the day they do what you are seeming to suggest, a whole lot of us may be in trouble.

INSTEAD OF THAT, we should push them away from the constitution. We should emphasize a steadfastly "HANDS OFF" approach when it comes to our constitutional rights. The subject of gun control IS NEVER SUPPOSED TO COME UP in congress. PERIOD END OF STORY. They have been feeding us that TREASON since the 30's! I think the best way to combat that is to CALL THEM OUT every time they bring it up. The Bill of Rights was basically written as 10 simple rules for politicians. There is something SERIOUSLY WRONG when our politicians can't even follow 10 SIMPLE RULES about how to respect the rights of the people they govern. We (and especially our politicians) need to call them out and NEVER LET A CONVERSATION CONTINUE if it involves violating one of our rights... and they need to call them NAMES LIKE TRAITOR EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, NEVER GETTING PAST GO ON SUCH AN ISSUE.

Our politicians should show EVEN MORE initiative by attacking anti-constitutional politician's eligibility to hold office, based on the violation of the oath they took to the Constitution. Subcommittees should be ripped a new AND REMOVED for ever letting such policies through to be voted on. The Bill of Rights is VERY CLEAR, WE JUST NEED TO HOLD THEM TO IT!!!! Seriously... Why should ANY of us follow the law IF THE LAWMAKERS CAN'T EVEN FOLLOW THE LAW!?
 
Wouldn't suggesting this open up the door to, "well, since it is reasonable to ban extremist websites as a justifiable infringement on 1A, banning military assault lethal-killing weapon doowhoopers is a justifiable infringement on the 2A because no civilian should own them"? I sometimes feel that is what happened with the NFA...? Further, I agree with AZAndy that Tor presents a blockade to any considerable success and giving the government even more power in their War On Privacy will likely have less benefit than it will harm.

The NSA and their multi-billion dollar War On Privacy over a decade+ had minimal success in exploiting Tor (and varied success with attacking VPNs.) With the click of a button, anyone in the US can appear to be located in virtually any country on the planet, and these tools are free, easy to use, and have legitimate uses in protecting privacy in regards to moral and legal activities. The bigger concern is that once big government starts undermining, it often has further reaching implications, it is impossible to control WHO has access, authority, and accountability, and this has a huge potential for abuse. This scares the crap out of many people in the field of infosec. For those interested in reading more, search for "The Clipper Chip." Also, note how many politicians support this, who was its biggest supporter in the early 1990s, and who has recently triumphed it and supported future initiatives like it (and yes, this is all connected.)

I'd personally like to see more research done on the people who visit these websites. The current discussion seems centered around 'bans', and I am not sure if that is a good idea or not. One concern I have is that further restricting rights (not just gun ownership) may be counter-productive. I don't believe most people who kill others in unjustifiable acts of violence go from normal-->murderous rampage in 6 seconds. At least with some cases, I think emphasis on treatment may prevent such things from ever happening. There are certainly warning signs, and likely an interval for an intervention before bullets start flying. And someone that unhealthy isn't just going to give up if they can't get a gun...hence the need to focus on people! However, support from either side of the argument there is a bit kinda wishy-washy, don't you think?


Further reading on this topic, for anyone interested
Cybersecurity Issues for the Next Administration
How the NSA Threatens National Security
Terrorists May Use Google Earth, But Fear Is No Reason to Ban It
Clinton, clipper and crypto




 
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Maybe the problem is that a "no fly list" without due process is also something a free society shouldn't have.

If we feel there are individuals that aren't to be trusted on planes, tell them to show up an extra 3 hours early for extensive tests, lock their carry-on away from them and put them in them in middle seats. But restricting someone's right to travel by the most convenient way is little different than gagging them or taking away their right to defense.
 
There are many in .gov that think that this is an extremist website. The same people view Al-Jezeera the same as ABC News. (And they aren't far off.....)
 
Maybe the problem is that a "no fly list" without due process is also something a free society shouldn't have.

If we feel there are individuals that aren't to be trusted on planes, tell them to show up an extra 3 hours early for extensive tests, lock their carry-on away from them and put them in them in middle seats. But restricting someone's right to travel by the most convenient way is little different than gagging them or taking away their right to defense.
The problem is that most don’t understand how a ‘no fly list’ would work regarding firearms.

The proposal is to place those on such a list into the NICS database, so when they attempt to purchase a gun, and the dealer submits their information, the response will likely be a ‘denied.’

Those denied because they were place in the database pursuant to a ‘no fly list’ will be afforded the same due process rights as anyone else subject to a denial, including the right to a fair hearing.

Concerning ‘no fly lists’ and air travel, although there is a fundamental right to travel freely about the country, there is no ‘right’ to travel by flight, where ‘no fly lists’ are perfectly Constitutional.

Consequently, the ACLU is wrong on this issue.
 
Something doesn't have to be a "fundamental right" to be something that people receive equally. Lesbians don't have fundamental right to anniversary cake, but they should be able to get a cake like anyone else - and the law supports that.

"Suspect" shouldn't be an underclass of people. If we have security concerns, address them directly. If you're on a watch list, buying a gun from an FFL should cause you to be watched more closely from the moment it is phoned in.

This sort of stuff takes us from free to kinda/sorta free.
 
Those denied because they were place in the database pursuant to a ‘no fly list’ will be afforded the same due process rights as anyone else subject to a denial, including the right to a fair hearing.

You're going to have to provide a credible cite for this. So far the only folks that have gotten off the government "no fly" list have had to sue the government to get off of it.
 
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