Barrel Life w/ Jacketed Bullets

[BigG]

I was recently re-reading Elmer Keith's Gun Notes and was reminded that Keith said that jacketed bullets would wear the rifling out of a 45 ACP automatic or revolver in 5,000 rounds or less. This was written in the 1960s and was based on many years of experience. He also stated a National Match 1903 would lose its edge within a case of 30/06 or about 1,200 rounds. Has anyone worn a bbl out shooting jacketed rounds.? What were your statistics?

In short, Keith advocated hard cast lead bullets at handgun velocities. He also did not seem shy at rebarreling one of his prized rifles.

 

[stans]

I think this may stem from several things. In some of these older firearms, the steel may not be up to today's standard, so wear with jacketed ammo might have been quite a bit more than with lead. Also, perhaps the jacket material at the time was harder than what we use today. I am just hypothisizing here, anyone with a better idea should chime in.

 

[AZ Jeff]

IPSC shooters pump thousands of round through their guns each year, most all of it being jacketed stuff at high velocities (at least in the scoped and compensated pistols.)

I have yet to hear of a IPSC shooter who was getting less that 7000 rounds out of a barrel, and many guys were going 20,000 to 30,000 rounds before replacing the tube.

 

[tc300mag1]

I think it all goes back to the steel of old for barrels isnt like the steel used today

 

[sigman4rt]

Barrel wear

Guns and Ammo did a story a couple of years back on the SIG 220. They fired 10,000 rounds of .45 ACP through a 220 and the gun shot more accurately afte 10,000 rds. than it did in the beginning. Every 500 rds. they cleaned the barrel and chamber only, lubing the gun every 1,000 rds. They only had 5 or 10 failures out of 10,000 rds.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I reduced the accuracy and rounded over the rifling of my P9ultra shooting about 5000 135 grn screamers (hot loaded) rounds before I got a 10mm. Even Briley who rebarreled it admitted that the rifleing was shot out of it.

I think you can wear one out, but I doubt I will ever do it again. Remember use the right tool for the job. Trying to turn a 40 into a 10mm is not the right tool.

 

[Jim Watson]

The NRA once reported accuracy records from Springfield that showed a .30-06's accuracy would actually improve for many hundred to several thousand rounds, depending on ammo. It was still good at 6,000 rounds when the barrels were replaced to be sure to have a fair trial of the ammo which was what was actually being tested.

The service rifle teams have been reported to replace match AR barrels at 2500, not because they are inaccurate, but to be sure they never get a chance to become inaccurate.

The old Skeeter Skelton Gold Cup test got just as good accuracy after 5,000 rounds as new.

I remember Elmer's comments and wonder how he wore out his barrels so fast.

On the other hand, Ned Roberts said that the old muzzle loading benchrest slug guns had a "gilt-edge" of best accuracy of about 600 shots. The clay sizing in the paper patches would wear the soft steel of the barrels that fast. The maker could recut the rifling lightly and make a swage for a slightly larger bullet and usually regain the "gilt-edge." Some places had rules against lubricated bare lead bullets because there is almost no wear and a good shot with a specially good barrel would never be beaten.

I recall an article about a .44 Magnum shot 20,000 rounds about half and half cast and jacketed. The forcing cone was badly eroded but the rest of the barrel was ok so it was set back and refitted.

I know a PPC shooter who wore out a .38 Special barrel with about 150,000 wadcutters, though.

 

[Ankeny]

I am one of those open blaster IPSC shooters who puts a lot of ammo down range. It is my experience that the first inch or so ahead of the chamber will go to heck in a handbasket from flame erosion long before the rifling is actually worn out from the bullet jacket.

 

[bfoster]

Big G,

Many serious benchrest riflemen do replace barrels at somewhere around 1500 rounds or thereabouts.

I suspect that Keith's experience was framed in his using bullet jackets made of cupro-nickel, a material prone depositing to severe fouling removable only with very strong ammonia solutions that tended to pit the open grained relatively impure steels commonly used at the time. Today we use bullets with guilding metal jackets here in the U.S. unless we have a very good reason not to. A really first rate barrel shooting a well balanced load will show little, if any fouling shooting these bullets.

Too, really fine barrels were very hard to come by in Keiths's youth. Obtaining a really good quality barrel was a real challange for many shooters, fine barrelmakers like Harry Pope & Axel Peterson had l-o-n-g backorder lists all their working lives. The quality of the steel remained something of a problem also. John Gregoire made many extremely accurate barrels for benchrest shooters during the 50's, but his barrel steel just didn't hold up for more than a few hundred rounds. Nevertheless, competitors bought them eagerly.

I may be wrong, but didn't Keith (at least in his early years) primarily use binary alloys in his cast bullets? IIRC, the hardest alloy he mentions in Sixgun Cartridges and Loads is 1:10, a material that we wouldn't today refer to as a hard alloy.

Bob

 

[Ala Dan]

Howdy Folk's-

Big G ole' bud, I've never shot a .45 ACP barrel out by
shooting jacketed bullet's; but I like Mr. Keith's theory
on the hard cast, lead bullets. Been shooting them (my
own and those cast by other's) for a long, long time;
without any problems. Lately, those cast by the Magnus
boys have worked extremely well in all caliber's that I
load.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[BigG]

Keith's experience as I recall was with surplus 45 Autos, M1917 revos, and surplus army hardball ammo. He also was an inspector at Ogden Arsenal and fired beaucoup ammo on Uncle Sam's dime. Whatever Uncle Sam was issuing, that was what Keith shot. So I would guess WWII and the decade prior and post to that would be what he was referring to.

Ankeny, I've seen a .40 S&W 1911 clone with the rifling shot out just as you say; appeared to be smooth bore for an inch after the chamber. Did your gun still shoot OK or was the accuracy degraded? TIA

 

[Clyde]

BigG
Check out http://www.schuemann.com/ Read the Moly warning under the Information section. I have a smooth bore 40S&W the barrel had less the 5K roumds. All Moly coat.... At the end of the barrel life the bullets would key-hole at 5 yards. I now run Lead or jacketed bullets..