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BATFE proposes to ban SS109 & M855 ammunition for civilian sales.

Discussion in 'Activism' started by Trent, Feb 14, 2015.

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  1. rd_zzyzx

    rd_zzyzx Member

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    I see where the ATF wants people to contact them with concerns. I had crafted an email to them explaining the concern for going down this slippery slope all in the name of protecting the police when I suddenly had a feeling of fear. Yes fear. I felt I was emailing the Gestapo and telling them I was a Jew. I am being sincere and honest.

    So, instead I wrote my congressional representatives. Their job is to represent me and to protect me and my anonymity.

    Sorry, but I suddenly had a real fear I was putting my name on a list. So, I did the best I can do.

    p.s. See post below, I sent a letter and decided to let this ball get rolling.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  2. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Letter sent:

     
  3. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    Very good letter MachIVshooter.

    One question: would the reclassification make *use* of the ammo illegal? I didn't think so in my reading of it, but you stated in your letter that it would..
     
  4. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    In handguns, yes. That has long been the case, but actual AP rounds in rifle calibers are relatively uncommon and almost always sold at a higher price with an exclusive statement. Pretty easy to tell from the black tip that M61 7.62mm or .30-06 M2 is an AP round, and there also aren't many handguns so chambered; tons of 5.56mm pistols out there, and SS109/M855 is only green tipped if it's the "green" (lead-free) version. Much of the M855 on the market has no outward appearance that distinguishes it from M193 or any other ball load. The only way to know is with a magnet.
     
  5. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    If you do not have the guts and fortitude to send the letter in, you do not have a reason to complain.
     
  6. IH 1026

    IH 1026 Member

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    I've emailed all of my Congressional Representatives, and posted the White House petition link on my FB profile.
     
  7. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Original post #1 has been modified.
     
  8. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    For those of you claiming paralysis due to a fear of getting on some "list" -

    This is an irrational fear. You're already on a list just by posting here. You're already on a list by sending anything in to congress or signing on to whitehouse.gov petitions. What do you really think being on some list is going to do to you? You CAN NOT LET FEAR RULE YOUR LIFE or you surrender your rights before they're stripped from you. You must speak out and you must do it clearly and whenever the government does anything you consider questionable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  9. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Generally speaking posts which are not directly relevant to the issue at hand in the Activism forum will be deleted.

    If a person wants to rant, there are a couple threads in General which are suitable.

    Keep this thread on track so we can get the business we need to do, done.
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Folks,

    Please review the Activism forum rules stickied at the top of the forum.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671

    Your posts will disappear if they get off this particular topic or they undermine the task at hand. All other forums at THR are discussion forums.
     
  11. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    Who has successfully sent a comment into BATF via email? What address did you use?
     
  12. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    Who has successfully sent a comment into BATF via email? What address did you use? I used [email protected] and it came back as undeliverable.
     
  13. rd_zzyzx

    rd_zzyzx Member

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    I thought about it very long and hard, and I emailed the BATF at the address they recommended.

    I did not use some anonymous email, and I put my name and location at the bottom of it.

    However, I do feel that emailing the BATF is like shouting out to the Gestapo while writing my Congressmen is like a call to the Allied Commanders.

    I did not send a chain letter, but I called them to task and expressed my distrust in their agency. Maybe if you all knew what I had to say you might not have encouraged me so. ;)

    It is done. I have your back. I will stand alone if needed.
     
  14. rd_zzyzx

    rd_zzyzx Member

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  15. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    FWIW, my understanding of this thing (& I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a "definitional" matter. IOW, Congress said "bullets with Characteristics X, Y and Z are armor piercing, and armor piercing bullets are illegal." I say that because I suspect a great many gun owners will want to write in and cite statistics, studies, feet/second figures etc.

    None of that makes any difference, unless it's included in the definitions under which BATFE is operating. If you're going to write to BATFE about this, look at the definitions that they're using and tell them why this round doesn't meet the definition. For example, if the regulation says "projectile entirely composed of . . . ," point out that the projectile is not "entirely" composed of that. If you argue whether or not the round actually can penetrate armor, based on fps, kinetic energy, or what have you, someone at BATFE will say, "so what? The definition of AP is based entirely on these other factors," which makes your letter eligible for the round file.
     
  16. rd_zzyzx

    rd_zzyzx Member

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    So, it is the old saying, "We know what you are, we just need to negotiate the price" comes to mind.

    What you say is true, but thoughts have little to do with mincing words and everything to do with the never ending onslaught. I wrote my congressmen because I want the BATF reined in, redefined, or disbanded.

    As Ray said, "Gozer the Gozerian? Good evening. As a duly-designated representative of the City, County and State of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin, or to the next convenient parallel dimension."
     
  17. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    My email to the ATF came back undeliverable/delayed almost 12hrs after sending it. I used this address [email protected] :scrutiny:
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  18. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    The comments are purely supposed to address the proposed agency interpretation and implementation of federal laws. Pointing out that LEOPA doesn't apply to M855 or SS109 ammunition and that BATFE is over reaching by treating it as if the definition of armor piercing ammunition applies to M855 or SS109 ammunition is one argument against their banning the sale to the public. Another is the negative financial impact to the states and federal government if sale is prohibited. Yet another is that this ammunition has valid sporting purposes as it has been in use for decades in recreational, competitive, and hunting applications. Another is that some states make possession of armor piercing ammunition illegal and if BATFE classifies this ammunition as armor piercing and removes an exemption for it those citizens will be at risk of suddenly and unexpectedly violating state law.

    We won't get anywhere sending comments in that we don't trust them or that they don't have any constitutional authority to regulate ammunition.

    Here's what I sent to the comments email address.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  19. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    After reading the ATF notice, it is crystal clear that they are only soliciting comment on how best to implement the ban with minimal impact...they are not asking for comment on how we feel about it. Seems the decision is made. Nonetheless, I submitted my own comments.
     
  20. Agent Smith

    Agent Smith Member

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  21. improperlyaged

    improperlyaged Member

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    My comments to them were probably similar to yours. I expressed that they have proven in the past not to be trusted and needed more congressional oversight.
     
  22. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Folks may find information in this thread useful http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=773836

     
  23. tcoz

    tcoz Member

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    I also wrote to my representatives, but I don't think they have anything to do with this. It's designed to sidestep them.
     
  24. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Many people don't seem to understand how law/regulations work.

    The legislative branch passes law and the regulatory agencies then have to interpret and implement based on the fact that the legislation is not always explicit for all instances/examples/changes over time.

    The BATFE is responsible for interpreting and implementing this armor piercing ammunition aspect of LEOPA. If the agency changes how they interpret the law in such a way it impacts implementation they're required to open a comment period before implementing the change. During that comment period industry, individuals, organizations, and politicians have the opportunity to critique the proposed change. This is the case in every law and agency interpreting/implementing the law. If we don't like the change that is made we need our elected officials to make law specifying the narrower specifics of the law so the regulatory agency has no room for interpretation that we don't approve of. That's just how all of it works. Messy, but...
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
  25. Bezoar

    Bezoar member

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    communication is needed but , the refusal to stop and pause and ask "why is the official email for commenting" non functional. particularly if public input has been asked for.
     
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