Bean Bags For HD(apartment)?

[Gymrat2005]

Hi guys,ive been lurking here for a couple months now and i was wondering if its practical to purchase bean bag rounds for HD?

I have neigbors on all sides of me except for two,that being above me,both of my sides,but i dont have anyone below or in front of my apartment,i live in a somewhat secluded area of my comple,where it is Extremelly Dark compared to the other parts of my Complex,After reapeted attempts to get managements attention on the matter they will come out,fix the lights,and 5 nights later they will be broken again,well i decided i was going to pay more attention to my section of the complex's Lights,well one night i saw some men with hoodies and Jackets on throw rocks at a particular light that was faceing about 4-5 units,i wacthed them break into this womens home and i imediately dialed 911,but they left before the police arrived,thankfully the residents werent home but after seeing something like that you realize the possibility of you being broken into dramatically increases, and it becomes a reality, im 19 years old trying to support my self,my sister(17),and my younger sister(14),all the while putting my self through college,and makeing sure my siblings graduate,im not going to go into detail but my parents have passed both at a young age,and if myself and my siblings were to be robbed and we lost all of our Valuables it would Financially Crush us,we would not survive...

So i have taken it upon my self to Purchase a shotgun,witch ive had for about 3 months now

Specs:
Mossberg 500 JIC 2
18.5 Inch Barrel
ATI top folding stock, ATI foregrip, ATI mag extension, ATI mag clamps, ATI heatshield with ghost ring sights, ATI ghost ring rear sight adapter, ATI 5 round saddle, UltraFire 6P torch at 125 lumins.

I would post pics but thats not the important issue here,

Is it possible to purchase Bean Bag rounds? I have a fear of maybe my rounds penatrateing multiple walls and injuring/killing my siblings,and my neighbors(ie Husbands,wifes,children,dogs,cats,Expensive Furnature) but i am responsible for what projectiles are used at my exposable.

When i first purchased i was steadfast on using 00 Buck,but after reading up on the issue i realized that was too much of a risk using that type of ammunition,at the most the BG is going to be 10-15ft away from me,but im predicting 4-8 ft, i soon switched to #4 Birdshot,i have mentally prepared my self to have to Pump the Forend more the once since im using this round,if it takes more than one shell then im prepared,i will not fire once and automatically Ausume the BG is dead or Unable or Innable to do me or my sisters bodily harm,but another problem comes up, what if the BG grabs one of my sisters,i know that from the distance im predicting at and the 18.5 Barrel I have that the spread from #4 Birdshot would be about the size of my hand,but i still have fears of Killing My sisters if it ever turned into a Situation where one of them was Being held hostage by a BG with a gun/knife at his disposel

I just, want to be safe,and i want to keep The ones i love safe,there all i have left really.

I also dont want some lawyer coming at me Fileing a Law suit bc i shot his client with a bean bag,on the other hand if i use live ammo,i could harm something else other than the BG,but a dead BG cant Sue me either.

By the way something i forgot to mention,i grew up with firearms,i am profecient in the ones i choose to be with.

And yes,ive looked into moveing but we have 6 months left on our lease and if we breach the lease we dont get put deposit back,and we need all the money we can get right now.

Sorry this turned into a Life Story but i wanted everyone to fully Understand the Predicement im in.

 

[Sav .250]

If your that concerned about collateral damage try the 12 ga rubber buck
shot shells. Natehez Shooters Supplies has them. Those boys will knock you.........stupid!

 

[Sam1911]

"Less-lethal" ammunition is really the worst of both worlds for self-defense. Not effective enough to count on for stopping a violent attack and yet still conveys all the risks and liability of use of lethal force.

I'd stick with No. 4s

-Sam

 

[benEzra]

There is a huge spectrum in between 00 buckshot and beanbag rounds.

#4 buckshot would be one possibility, or if even that penetrates too much, heavy birdshot would be better than beanbag rounds. Just don't expect a single round of birdshot to incapacitate an attacker.

You might also consider getting one of these for carry on your person. Unlike traditional pepper sprays, this is pyrotechnic initiated (non-aerosol) and can be used indoors without incapacitating yourself.

http://www.pepperblaster.com

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If you are that worried about apartment defense, just keep a bunch of baseballs around to throw at intruders. You get about the same impact as bean bags without the defacto lethal force firearms concerns.

Or, get a paintball gun that has the power level you can adjust and turn it up to about 600 fps. It would give you a lot more rapid fire options than a pump shotgun and higher capacity too.

Rubber buckshot sucks when it bounces off hard surfaces in an enclosed space and comes back to hit you.

Yeah, what Sam1911 said.

 

[kingpin008]

Gymrat - first of all, I'd like to commend you for being a stand-up guy for your family in light of what you've had to go through. I'm 28, and I can't imagine having to bear the responsibilities that you have to every day.

That said, the previous posters here are right - beanbags are a poor choice for self-defense. While your concern regarding over-penetration is admirable, your first concern should be choosing an effective tool to stop a threat should one present itself.

Bean bags are a poor man-stopper. One of the misconceptions is that when someone is shot with them, they'll either drop right there or be seriously deterred from continuing their actions. In reality, things like bean bag rounds and tasers are used as a "first option" to subdue uncooperative subjects - not out-and-out murderers bent on taking you out. That's why cops have multiple levels of defense - they use what is appropriate for the job. If someone is drunk or unruly, they get pepper spray or bean bags. If they're attacking (especially with a weapon) lethal force quickly becomes a reasonable method of response.

On top of all of this, you have the legal ramifications to worry about - In many places, shooting someone with a bean bag round is virtually the same as shooting them with buckshot - both have the potential to kill. Therefore, you're not really left with the excuse of "well, I shot with the bean bags because I didn't want to escalate things too much". The prosecutor, and likely the jury, will look at it as using lethal force. And if you're going to go that route, there's no point in using a tool that is a poor substitute for actual lethal ammunition.

Anyway - sorry for the long-winded post. The point is, if you're looking for an effective solution, the best you're going to find is buckshot or similar. Things like bean bags, rubber buckshot, and the like are not going to do you any favors when it comes down to you vs. the threat and the aftermath of that encounter.

Good luck, and good on ya for manning up and defending you and yours.

 

[Jonah71]

Have you thought about managed recoil rounds?

 

[kingpin008]

Unless managed recoil rounds also reduce penetration, they probably wouldn't do much to answer his question.

If they do, that's cool, but I'd also worry about reduced penetration in a potential badguy.

 

[shockwave]

Go with the birdshot. Don't sweat the hostage scenario - it doesn't happen very often. Secure your weapon if you have to leave it unattended. Don't forget that a baseball bat or similar is great to prop up by the door.

 

[19-3Ben]

Gymrat - first of all, I'd like to commend you for being a stand-up guy for your family in light of what you've had to go through. I'm 28, and I can't imagine having to bear the responsibilities that you have to every day.

This was exactly my first thought. I'm 25 and in awe of you. Kudos.

All that being said, I'd use something like This in your situation. #4 is generally considered to be totally adequate for self-defense, but will penetrate a bit less than 00buck.

 

[Jonah71]

I don't think reduced penetration in the BG would be a problem. Yesterday on THR I found very useful pics posted with balistic jell demos of different shotgun rounds. But I can't seem to find it now. I do remember it showed that #1 was more effective for HD and penetration. Now I'm gonna have to find that post again before I can go home! lol

 

[LeonCarr]

#4 Buckshot. Birdshot is a notoriously poor stopper, and even at close range it lacks penetration to reach vital organs. Follow the basic rules of firearms safety by knowing your target and what is behind it, always.

Also, you might take some steps to "harden" your apartment. They make various devices that can slow down or prevent your door being kicked in that can be installed without making permanent modifications (forbidden by some leases), and also if you have sliding doors a broomstick cut to size in the door channel can prevent the door from being slid open without breaking the glass, which is very loud and also a universal sound that someone is breaking in a dwelling.

Again, you are to be commended for stepping up, running your household, and taking care of your siblings in the absence of your parents.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[leadcounsel]

Absolutely NOT. If you are shooting a gun at someone it better be a life and death situation and you need to treat it as such. Novelty rounds like bean bags could fail to stop an attacker and get you killed by the attacker who is using real ammo.

 

[19-3Ben]

LeonCarr just made a great point. Have you taken steps to 'harden' the house, so it's harder to get into in the first place?

Might want to try DoorJamb Armor.
Bright lights are good as they deter those who don't want to be seen.

 

[kingpin008]

Go with the birdshot.

Birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is for bucks (and other similarly-sized creatures.) Use the right tool for the job.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Gymrat,

We go through the 'less lethal' thing every few weeks here. The answer is always the same. A shotgun is a lethal weapon. Anything you shoot out of a shotgun has the potential to be lethal, including blanks (we had a LEO killed with a blank in a training scenario near here a few years ago).

Police use less lethal ammunition because they have the legal leeway to do that- they operate under a clearly defined use of force continuum. They are trained and certified to use less lethal options. And their employer provides their legal defense in situations where challenges arise to their use of force decisions.

None of those things apply to you, however.

If you shoot someone with a shotgun, you will be using lethal force in the eyes of the law, no matter what ammunition you use. There's no way you can shoot someone "just a little bit" with a shotgun. Not in the eyes of the law, and not in practicality either. You must be fully legally justified in using lethal force- or else you have no business using a lethal weapon. That's a very general statement I know, but it applies in every jurisdiction I'm familiar with.

You don't tell us where you are, so we have no way of knowing what the law might be in your particular jurisdiction. Even so, being brutally honest, being fully acquainted with the laws on self defense in your jurisdiction is your responsibility, not ours. Your legal problems in the event you make a mistake in regard to the law of self defense in your jurisdiction might well go much further than some lawyer filing a lawsuit against you- you could be arrested on any one of a number of charges. You need to know the law, both lawbook law and case law, regarding self defense in your jurisdiction.

You're bearing a heavy burden already with all the responsibilities you have, and believe me I don't want to add to those burdens. But I'd hate to see you get in legal trouble, too. And that's the only reason I'm saying all this.

You see, all the munitions I keep referring to as 'less lethal' are exactly that. Not 'less than lethal,' because they can and certainly do kill, especially at the kind of close range often present in a home defense scenario. That's true of any of them- bean bags, rubber buckshot or anything else. At ten feet, a load of Tic Tacs fired out of a shotgun could well be lethal.

It's all too easy to get all wrapped up in the idea that just having the right firearm, the right ammunition, and the right accessories on that firearm will fix everything. I'm sorry, but that's just not so. It doesn't work that way. No, it isn't necessary to train every day all day for a lifetime and become some kind of Jedi knight to use a firearm effectively in self defense. That's why firearms are such equalizers in terms of strength, agility etc- because they are relatively easy to use, even for the small, the weak, the handicapped etc.

But it's still necessary to know when and under what circumstances to use a defensive firearm, and it's still necessary to be skillful enough to use the firearm successfully. Gunfighting is not the same as shooting targets on a flat range, claybirds out of a trap or game animals in the field. It calls for a different set of skills, skills that have to be learned and practiced.

You've told us every possible physical detail about your shotgun. You haven't mentioned your training or practice regimen or how many rounds you have fired through that gun so far.

You haven't talked about how you've gone about securing your apartment to make it more difficult for anyone to get into, or without your being aware of the attempted entry. The fact that you are aware of the issues with area lighting says you're on the right track here, and that's good. You need to keep after the apartment managers to get those lights fixed, and harden them so they aren't so easy to disable if the vandalism keeps happening.

I'd suggest you spend a good bit of time at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ , just on general principles. The part about home security there is good, too- see http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/homesecurity.html . There are all sorts of ways to make your doors and windows less attractive targets to potential housebreakers, even in an apartment- see also http://www.ou.edu/oupd/hardhome.htm , http://www.ehow.com/how_5800182_target-harden-home.html , etc.

You haven't talked about your home defense plan, how you intend to go about getting yourself and your shotgun between your family and any threat in the event someone does try to get into your apartment. You've mentioned your concern for your neighbors- that's good. In the meantime, you can be thinking about setting up your 'fatal funnels' in ways that avoid your having to put neighboring apartments downrange from you, as you figure possible responses to entry at any possible door or window into your apartment.

You haven't mentioned whose job it is to call the cops while you're handling the threat itself. You haven't mentioned having a cell phone on hand just in case the bad guys cut the phone line to your apartment, even a cell phone without a service contract can still dial 9-1-1 as long as it's working and charged.

There are lots more similar tips covered in the NRA's Personal Protection In The Home course. I doubt you can manage to get to that class, but if you'll PM me your mailing address I will loan you a copy of the classroom part of that class on DVD.

In the meantime, keep your head on straight and stay safe,

lpl

 

[Coronach]

"Less lethal" loads for defense are dreadful ideas. Reread what Sam wrote again:

"Less-lethal" ammunition is really the worst of both worlds for self-defense. Not effective enough to count on for stopping a violent attack and yet still conveys all the risks and liability of use of lethal force.

He's right. You have the same legal perils, civil and criminal, no matter which round you use. Effectiveness of less-lethal rounds is questionable. In most cases where cops use them, there is also another cop standing by providing lethal force cover, just in case the less-lethal weapon fails to stop the aggression- which it does, an unacceptably high percentage of the time.

There is absolutely no way I would trust my life to a beanbag round.

Mike

 

[NG VI]

Don't get those, they are a great way to get yourself hurt, or worse get yourself a terrible legal situation.

If you are concerned about shooting through a wall, my advice would be to go buy as many of those hundred-round bulk packs of shells as you can afford and wring every last bit of practice you can out of your shotgun, and buy some small buck to load it with.

Then just be extremely precise if you should unfortunately need to aim and fire at someone.

 

[NOLAEMT]

If you're unwilling, or unable to use 00buck for HD. how about these?

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx

they are remingtons new "home defense" ammo. BB shot (which is between bird and buckshot) is .18 caliber, and is made of hevishot, or something equivalent. so it should penetrate better against a person than #4, but not rip through walls to the same degree as 00 buckshot.

I use Federal Flitecontrol 00 buckshot, and it gives insanely tight patters out of my cylinder bore mossberg 500. at the ranges you are talking about it patterns into about a 3 or 4 inch circle. easy to keep all the pellets on target, so that might be another option for you.

 

[Justin]

What about the use of frangible shot or slugs? This pdf is from one company that makes them.

 

[RobMoore]

If the rounds in your gun won't go through walls, you better hope your opponent doesn't use cover.

 

[Zip7]

At 5 feet, a low brass 2 3/4" 12 gauge dove load with #8 shot will put a nice hole right through your wall just a tad larger than the shotgun barrel. Ask me how I know...

BB sized shot - especially if you can find lead BB or HeviShot is a good idea. Anyone hit with this kind of round at close range will be deterred. They may not be dead, but they will be deterred indefinitely. I have shot many live animals with all kinds of guns, and a one shot anchored and instant death is not a very common result except in two cases - buckshot on deer and #6 or #4 shot on any small animal like squirrel/rabbit etc.. However, any shotshell at 10 feet is about like a slug - has no spread. Won't penetrate like a slug, but it's not going to fill up a doorway with shot. ... Unless your shotgun can make it throw a pattern much looser than mine. Mine are best at 20-25 yards.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

You know what we said about the beanie gun on the force? The good thing about it was that once you ran out of ammo you had a great club to beat the guy into submission with.

 

[Gymrat2005]

I Really Appreciate Everyone ones comments and replies,Yes I think I will stay away from bean-bag rounds,I'm going to purchase these http://www.remington.com/products/am...nse-loads.aspx

And to Lee Lapin,everything that i could possibly do to my apartment besides use a door stopper i have done,and ive probably shot my shotgun with various loads around 300-450 times,the day i purchased it i went to the range and went through atleast 150 00 Buck.

Oh,and we dont have a home phone,i carry a cellphone,and my older sister does,my door to my room has a long hallway thats a straight shot to the door and i can see my sisters' room and the kitchen,the only part i cant see is the Living Room and Slideing GLass door and thats the one im most worried of,but yes back the the original point im def not using bean bags now that youve all opened my eyes,and given me insight,i'll prob end up buying the ones i have linked above, I have a 5+1 Capacity with a ,i keep 5 in the magazine,and 5 on my side saddle, when i first started this thread i forgot to mention i'd be using 1 beanbag round with live ammo in the magazine tube following it,the intent was never to only use bean bag rounds,but ya the link that NOLAEMT linked sounds really apealing,i'll buy a 50 shells or so and take some to the range with the current shells i have and test the spread.

Thanks All!

 

[Shadow 7D]

Wow, Lee Lapin nailed it in one, the problem with less than lethal, unfortunately if you are using a gun, it is what it is, best is to practice in your home and try to find safe shooting avenues.