Bear country carry piece (handgun)?

[jski]

Alright, here’s the deal. I’ve been debating this question with some military guys who’s shot Glock 19s until the barrels burnt out and slides fell off.

We've been talking about best sidearm to have on you while in bear country in Alaska.

The 10mm went into hiding for quite a few years and now has returned with a cult like following. And some are suggesting it makes an excellent bear country carry piece.

I would think the 41 magnum would be a kind of minimum for a grizzly backup gun. And the 10mm sure ain’t no 41 magnum!

So here’s the “question”: which would you rather have on hand when a griz broke from the brush: S&W Performance Center Model 460XV (loaded with a heavy duty Casull) with 7 1/2” barrel or a Glock 20 10mm ?

 

[Robert Highhawk]

460 casull

 

[jmr40]

And the 10mm sure ain’t no 41 magnum!

which would you rather have on hand when a griz broke from the brush: S&W Performance Center Model 460XV (loaded with a heavy duty Casull) with 7 1/2” barrel or a Glock 20 10mm ?

The 10mm is going to be with me. The Casull will end up getting left behind because it is too big. It is a better dedicated hunting handgun, but not my pick for large predator defense.

A 200 gr hardcast from a Glock 20 leaves the muzzle at pretty much the same speed as a 210 gr bullet from a 4" barreled 41 magnum. The numbers you see listed in ballistics charts are from 8" barrels and from 8" barrels 10mm can't compete, but in a practical carry size it matches 41mag, beats 357, and is closer to 44mag than you'd think. I get an honest 1300 fps with these in my G20.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105

Compared to 41 mag

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

I'm perfectly content with a 10mm. It has enough power and penetration which is the real key. I've carried mine twice camping in Yellowstone and all over the east in black bear country. In the real world the cartridge matters less than we think. Here is a good read.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz6GngdAD3o

In a nutshell they profile 37 incidents involving 8 black bear and 29 grizzly with only one failure to stop the attack. And that was 357 mag. There is another followup where they profiled another 30+ incidents with virtually the same results, but I cannot find a link to that study.

The most commonly used gun was 44 mag, but 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and 45 combined for the most stops. All were 100% effective, even on grizzly. With 147 gr hardcast 9mm has proven to give over 5' of penetration in gel and has successfully been used to stop grizzly. But I just don't have the confidence in it that I would 10mm. ​

 

[mcb]

Tongue firmly planted in my cheek

For bears as defined/imagined by internet handgun forums I suggest carry nothing less than a FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile launcher and at least three reloads. I use to only carry a Carl Gustaf M4 but I had a run in with a larger brown bear using an up-armored reactive armor applique kit and the single-charge warhead of the old Carl could not cut it. It was a narrow escape. Still have nightmares. The tandem warhead of the Javelin ensures penetration even against bruin with reactive armor. I have been pleased with the upgrade in my woods-carry kit.

Tongue extracted

I carry a 38 Special pretty much all the time in the woods if I am not hunting but here in middle Tennessee I am highly unlike to encounter even a black bear. Good luck, don't get eaten.

 

[Obturation]

Sweet! Bear thread!
Joking aside, carry the gun you shoot the best. If you see me walking a trail, far from civilization and without a rifle- I'll have my 5" 454 casull. I have a g20 and carry it a lot but if there's a chance of seeing something toothy I'll bring a big gun,but probably don't NEED all that in reality . never faced down a brown bear, I'm sure it's terrifying. Time between follow up shots is important.

 

[FL-NC]

I would carry the Glock 20 with its 13 opportunities to address my problem.

 

[1942bull]

Several cans of bear spray and a 10mm loaded with Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammo/.

 

[Glockula]

I used to carry my .357 almost exclusively in the near woids here. The last couple years I have favored my G23 and not felt undergunned at all.

I would think a 10mm with a heavy projectile would be great in Alaska.

 

[Patocazador]

Joking aside, carry the gun you shoot the best.

I shoot my S&W 4" Model 29 in .44 mag. best. It's not too heavy to carry. I know because I did it on a bowhunt for elk in the Bob Marshall Wilderness.

 

[troy fairweather]

Think I'd take the 10mm, maybe better to have more rounds even though it may not be as powerful a what's in a revolver.

 

[DukeConnor]

Interesting topic. First time I have read a what caliber for bear thread. I will be watching this thread closely.

 

[DocRock]

If one is to rely on a handgun in Brown bear country, it should be chambered in the largest, most powerful cartridge that you will carry, can rapidly bring to bear (excuse the pun), and can shoot accurately, whatever that may be.

 

[jmohme]

I don't live in Grizzly country, but I do carry a G20 and can empty 15+1 into center mass pretty quickly.
The G20 is my EDC and when I am working the acreage in East Texas, I have a second magazine loaded with Underwood Extreme Penetrators (1500fps drill bits) in case I run across a ticked off momma wild hog that thinks I am a threat to her young.

I also recently got a couple boxes of Underwood 220 grain hard cast to experiment with.
I fired a few of them yesterday at the range, and they are accurate enough, so now I have another choice.

My G20 is the SD gun that I shoot the best and most consistently, so it would be my choice.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I shoot a Glock 19 very well and a Glock 21 even better. Since G20s are pretty available and I am already familiar with the shape, weight, and size from the G21, I think I would buy the G20 and practice a bunch with it to get used to the snap and I figure that would be about the best option I could come up with.

I would use some kind of hot hunting ammo for it I think.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Just say no to bear threads

 

[courtgreene]

I generally carry frickin’ sharks with frickin’ lasers on their heads. Seriously, when I first started reading THR forums I really got excited about these threads. Now, the dead horse has been beaten into an oily spot on the ground. There’s even a sticky at the top of this section, if memory serves.
But I’ll play along anyway: now that I DO live in bear country (Black, not grizzly) I carry a lever action rifle in either 30-30 or .41 mag because they’re maneuverable enough that I’ll actually take them. If I’m bringing my dogs and have a leash in each hand I’ll just holster a .357. It’s not about the most fire power, it’s about what you will take and what, if you take it, is pleasant enough that you can still enjoy the trip. I hear good things about bear spray, but I know I’d never remember to pack it.

 

[troy fairweather]

Bears don't seem to be consistent how easy they die. Seen were they will eat a few magnum rounds and keep coming. Then again I believe the record grizzly way back was killed with a 22lr by a native Alaskan women.

 

[Grumulkin]

So here’s the “question”: which would you rather have on hand when a griz broke from the brush: S&W Performance Center Model 460XV (loaded with a heavy duty Casull) with 7 1/2” barrel or a Glock 20 10mm ?

Firstly, and pardon me please if you think it's pretty, I don't think the S&W Performance Center Model 460XV looks pretty (sorry kind of) and is a poor choice for a close encounter. It's all set up for a scope and a scope at close range is a handicap and not a benefit. I also think if you're going to carry around something with a 7.5 inch barrel you might as well carry a rifle. Furthermore, loading a 460 S&W Magnum handgun with 460 Casull cartridges is like castrating your prime breeding bull; the only thing worse is loading either one with cast bullets (sorry again kind of).

My choice for Alaska was a 460 S&W Magnum with a 5 inch barrel and open sights but I never had to use it in anger.

I believe that grizzly attacks are fairly uncommon. I was hunting with some guys. One party of two included a veterinarian and both carried rifles. A grizzly came out of the brush, stood up, looked them over at fairly close range and went back into the brush with no shot fired. They had a bit of anxiety at the time but it gave them something to talk about.

 

[jski]

The 10mm is going to be with me. The Casull will end up getting left behind because it is too big. It is a better dedicated hunting handgun, but not my pick for large predator defense.

A 200 gr hardcast from a Glock 20 leaves the muzzle at pretty much the same speed as a 210 gr bullet from a 4" barreled 41 magnum. The numbers you see listed in ballistics charts are from 8" barrels and from 8" barrels 10mm can't compete, but in a practical carry size it matches 41mag, beats 357, and is closer to 44mag than you'd think. I get an honest 1300 fps with these in my G20.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105

Compared to 41 mag

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

I'm perfectly content with a 10mm. It has enough power and penetration which is the real key. I've carried mine twice camping in Yellowstone and all over the east in black bear country. In the real world the cartridge matters less than we think. Here is a good read.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz6GngdAD3o

In a nutshell they profile 37 incidents involving 8 black bear and 29 grizzly with only one failure to stop the attack. And that was 357 mag. There is another followup where they profiled another 30+ incidents with virtually the same results, but I cannot find a link to that study.

The most commonly used gun was 44 mag, but 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and 45 combined for the most stops. All were 100% effective, even on grizzly. With 147 gr hardcast 9mm has proven to give over 5' of penetration in gel and has successfully been used to stop grizzly. But I just don't have the confidence in it that I would 10mm. ​

I hate to pop anyone’s balloon but the 10mm is in no way comparable to a 41 mag. They’re in completely different leagues.

Here the baddest-ass 10mm known to man:
Buffalo Bore 10mm
“DANGEROUS GAME” 10MM AUTO - Mono-METAL
190 gr. Mono-Metal FN @ 1,200fps / ME 607 ft-lbs

Here’s Buffalo Bore’s 41 offering:
HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
230 gr. Keith (1,450 fps/M.E. 1,074 ft. lbs.)

and

HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
265 gr. L.W.N. (1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs.)

Here’s Buffalo Bore’s 357 offering:
BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC - (1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

So is the 10mm equal to a 357? NO!

This constant effort from 10mm fanboys to ascribe magical, mystical powers to the 10mm is nonsense and lends credence to the perception that 10mm is a cult. Get real 10mm fanboys, IT AIN’T NO 41 MAGNUM! Nor is it a 357!

 

[mcb]

I hate to pop anyone’s balloon but the 10mm is in no way comparable to a 41 mag. They’re in completely different leagues.

Here the baddest-ass 10mm known to man:
Buffalo Bore 10mm
“DANGEROUS GAME” 10MM AUTO - Mono-METAL
190 gr. Mono-Metal FN @ 1,200fps / ME 607 ft-lbs

Here’s Buffalo Bore’s 41 offering:
HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
230 gr. Keith (1,450 fps/M.E. 1,074 ft. lbs.)

and

HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
265 gr. L.W.N. (1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs.)

Here’s Buffalo Bore’s 357 offering:
BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC - (1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

So is the 10mm equal to a 357? NO!

This constant effort from 10mm fanboys to ascribe magical, mystical powers to the 10mm is nonsense and lends credence to the perception that 10mm is a cult. Get real 10mm fanboys, IT AIN’T NO 41 MAGNUM! Nor is it a 357!

I agree 10mm Auto is not close to 41 Mag but you pick some weak sauce 10mm Auto there to try to compare to your 41 Mag.

10mm Auto can fairly easily get to and exceed 700 ft-lbs. My current load is a 200gr JHP going 1250 fps which is just shy of 700 ft-lbs and I am not pushing my loads. Buffallo Bore that you quote above also offers a 180gr JHP and a 220gr Hard Cast 10mm Auto that both can exceed 700 ft-lbs. Double Tap offers at least two loads that exceed 750 ft-lbs and several other that exceed 700 ft-lbs.

Again 10mm Auto is NOT close to 41 Mag but at the same time don't sell it short either.

 

[jski]

10mm
Case capacity 24.1 gr H2O

41 Magnum
Case capacity 34 gr H2O

That’s a 42% increase.

357 Magnum
Case capacity 26.2 gr H2O

That’s a 5% increase.

 

[WrongHanded]

So here’s the “question”: which would you rather have on hand when a griz broke from the brush: S&W Performance Center Model 460XV (loaded with a heavy duty Casull) with 7 1/2” barrel or a Glock 20 10mm ?

'On' hand? Or 'in' my hand?

If it's in my hand already, the 460XV. But if I have to draw and shoot fast, that gigantic revolver with a 7-1/2" pipe isn't going to give me much time, in comparison to the G20.

I'd much rather carry the G20. But honestly, neither would make me as comfortable as my SBH Bisley with 4-5/8" barrel, and my own loads. Because I know how to shoot that gun well.

 

[jski]

MCB, that still ain’t a 357 tho:

BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC - (1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

 

[Paco42]

Simple. A .25 ACP Beretta from my pocket. I shoot my hunting partner in the back of the head, topple his corpse into the path of the bear, and go about my business. <sigh> Since few of us have shot a bear in self-defense, fewer still a big brown, etc., pretty much all this is conjecture, hyperbole, rumor, peyote-produced imaginings, and worse. FWIW, I actually carry a G20 w/ Underwood XP stuffed to the gills when I’m in brown bear country. In addition to bear spray. And yes, I do always carry the latter. My plan—subject to change once the SHTF—is that if I have time to consider, I start w/ spray, then proceed accordingly. If I have to bring things to a conclusion now, it’s the Glock. If neither works, well, you guys can all talk about how I shoulda done things differently.

 

[mcb]

MCB, that still ain’t a 357 tho:

BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC - (1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

I never mentioned 357 Mag and never meant to imply anything about 357 Mag either. I was simply point out your selected example was selling 10mm Auto short by a bit over 100 ft-lbs (17% or more energy)

Remember I am the guy carrying a Javelin in bear country. I measure my energy on target in lbs of RDX when it comes to bruin. I ain't going to be lunch!