Bear country carry piece (handgun)?

[CraigC]

The 10mm is going to be with me. The Casull will end up getting left behind because it is too big. It is a better dedicated hunting handgun, but not my pick for large predator defense.

A 200 gr hardcast from a Glock 20 leaves the muzzle at pretty much the same speed as a 210 gr bullet from a 4" barreled 41 magnum. The numbers you see listed in ballistics charts are from 8" barrels and from 8" barrels 10mm can't compete, but in a practical carry size it matches 41mag, beats 357, and is closer to 44mag than you'd think. I get an honest 1300 fps with these in my G20.

You repeat the same nonsense in every thread like this. The 10mm is nowhere near the .41Mag, unless you look at the heaviest 10mm loads and the lightest .41 loads. The original .41Spl loads that Taffin tested in a friggin' Colt SAA 30yrs ago are comparable to the heaviest 10mm loads. Namely a 215gr at 1200fps. The .41Mag will do that with a 300gr.

The 10mm is not even on the same planet as the .44Mag. What the 10mm does with a 230gr bullet, the .44 does with a 355gr.

The G20 also stops being light once it's loaded. You're paying for those 16rds and a loaded G20 weighs the same as an all steel 1911 or a 4" 629MG. A Ruger Alaskan is a whopping 4oz heavier.

 

[Paco42]

The 10mm is going to be with me. The Casull will end up getting left behind because it is too big. It is a better dedicated hunting handgun, but not my pick for large predator defense.

A 200 gr hardcast from a Glock 20 leaves the muzzle at pretty much the same speed as a 210 gr bullet from a 4" barreled 41 magnum. The numbers you see listed in ballistics charts are from 8" barrels and from 8" barrels 10mm can't compete, but in a practical carry size it matches 41mag, beats 357, and is closer to 44mag than you'd think. I get an honest 1300 fps with these in my G20.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105

Compared to 41 mag

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

I'm perfectly content with a 10mm. It has enough power and penetration which is the real key. I've carried mine twice camping in Yellowstone and all over the east in black bear country. In the real world the cartridge matters less than we think. Here is a good read.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz6GngdAD3o

In a nutshell they profile 37 incidents involving 8 black bear and 29 grizzly with only one failure to stop the attack. And that was 357 mag. There is another followup where they profiled another 30+ incidents with virtually the same results, but I cannot find a link to that study.

The most commonly used gun was 44 mag, but 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and 45 combined for the most stops. All were 100% effective, even on grizzly. With 147 gr hardcast 9mm has proven to give over 5' of penetration in gel and has successfully been used to stop grizzly. But I just don't have the confidence in it that I would 10mm. ​

Gotta say, the ammoland compilation makes for entertaining reading in spots. If you do decide to read it, make sure you read the whole thing. My favorite encounter is near the end. A brown bear decides to take over an elk carcass from a group of hunters, acting aggressively, apparently, as it does so. When it gets within 10 ft (!?!), multiple hunters let loose with a combination of weapons. Nine shots fired. Only two of which actually hit the bear. I can’t help but wonder whether the elk had died of natural causes.

 

[jski]

There’s a good article from NRA’s American Hunter magazine:
8 Best Charge-Stopping Bear Cartridges
There's only one pistol cartridge in the list:

.454 Casull
Developed by Dick Casull and Jack Fulmer in 1957, the .454 Casull is a dangerous game hunter’s dream come true. One of the more powerful handguns available today, the .454 is capable of pushing a 300-grain Buffalo Bore bullet at 1650 fps with 1,813 ft.-lbs. of energy at the muzzle. Nelson killed one of his charging grizzlies with a .454 Casull, which he says is one of his favorite choices for bear defense. Ruger chambers the .454 Casull in both the Super Redhawk with a 4-inch barrel and the Alaskan in a 3-inch variant, both of which are compact and easy to draw when things get up close and personal. Is it fun to shoot? Not at all. Nelson says after about 20 shots, his wrist starts to swell and he can no longer shoot. The beauty of the .454, however, is that you can practice with .45 Colt rounds and save yourself a bit of recoil trauma.

 

[Buzznrose]

I would carry the Glock 20 with its 13 opportunities to address my problem.

You’d be shorting yourself a few rounds. 21 mags are 13 rounders...20’s hold 15 bb’s

 

[Antihero]

I don't live in Grizzly country, but I do carry a G20 and can empty 15+1 into center mass pretty quickly.
The G20 is my EDC and when I am working the acreage in East Texas, I have a second magazine loaded with Underwood Extreme Penetrators (1500fps drill bits) in case I run across a ticked off momma wild hog that thinks I am a threat to her young.

I also recently got a couple boxes of Underwood 220 grain hard cast to experiment with.
I fired a few of them yesterday at the range, and they are accurate enough, so now I have another choice.

My G20 is the SD gun that I shoot the best and most consistently, so it would be my choice.

The " I can fire a whole bunch of rounds " thing with bear is funny. And yeah.....I know.....another bear thread.

If you have the time to shoot a bear 15 times.....it's far away and not a threat. Figure that the bear is charging and steps away when you figure out what to carry, you'll probably get 1 shot, 2 if you are lucky. Make them count.

And the 10mm is a great auto round......it's outclassed hugely by most of the magnum revolver rounds. It's roughly 357 level, which is fine for lower 48 bears but not great against Alaskan much bigger bear.

 

[mcb]

15rd is less than 4 seconds of ammo for a proficient shooter making decent hits at close range.

4 seconds to being bear chow seems really close.

 

[jmohme]

The " I can fire a whole bunch of rounds " thing with bear is funny. And yeah.....I know.....another bear thread.

If you have the time to shoot a bear 15 times.....it's far away and not a threat. Figure that the bear is charging and steps away when you figure out what to carry, you'll probably get 1 shot, 2 if you are lucky. Make them count.

And the 10mm is a great auto round......it's outclassed hugely by most of the magnum revolver rounds. It's roughly 357 level, which is fine for lower 48 bears but not great against Alaskan much bigger bear.

The thing is, that if a person can effectively dump 15 rounds into center mass, that person probably won't have to use all 15 and
It's still nice to have the additional chances, otherwise, I would just carry one of my single shot Thompsons.

 

[jski]

The " I can fire a whole bunch of rounds " thing with bear is funny. And yeah.....I know.....another bear thread.

If you have the time to shoot a bear 15 times.....it's far away and not a threat. Figure that the bear is charging and steps away when you figure out what to carry, you'll probably get 1 shot, 2 if you are lucky. Make them count.

And the 10mm is a great auto round......it's outclassed hugely by most of the magnum revolver rounds. It's roughly 357 level, which is fine for lower 48 bears but not great against Alaskan much bigger bear.

1. What’s your feeling about the 41 magnum?
2. Is the 7 1/2” barrel on the S&W Performance Center 460XVR too much and too heavy?
3. Hard cast or mono-metal bullets?

 

[Paco42]

Oh, fercryinoutloud...This is getting ridiculous. it’s the deaf telling the blind about the performance of the choir, and the blind telling the deaf, “That’s not the choir, you can tell by the color of their robes.” Just to check the potency of a full-octane 10mm load, I took my G20 over to my neighbor’s pasture and shot his 2300-lb Brahma bull. First I whacked the bull in the knees with a 2x4, then called his mama names, pulled his tail, and told him nine of ten cows were rejecting his semen. When I finally had him good and pissed, I had a hornet sting him in his nethers, then punched him in the nose, just to make sure he’d know it was me. Then I let him get up a good head of steam chasing me around the pasture before I stopped, turned, and shot him with the Glock. He fainted at the noise, and the muzzle blast gave him a heart attack. The projectile went clean through his skull, down through the torso, did a three-point turn in his pelvis, and returned topside to exit his right nostril. I’ve managed to piss off my neighbor Fred, kill a bull he had up for sale, and convince nobody of the power of a high-power 10mm load, “because it ain’t a bear, just a cow”. And now Fred’s got his Colt Anaconda .45 LC in my back yard, “squirrel hunting”. And all of this is of more value than another discussion of what sidearm somebody else should carry when they wanna shoot Yogi’s big brother atop Denali in a blizzard.

 

[Paco42]

P.S. Fred says the Anaconda’s not for sale. But he’s got a special right now on various cuts of beef.

 

[Paco42]

There’s a good article from NRA’s American Hunter magazine:
8 Best Charge-Stopping Bear Cartridges
There's only one pistol cartridge in the list:

There’s only one pistol cartridge in the list?? Really? Let’s see...there’s also the .44 Magnum...and...#8 on the list, the...wait for it...the .357 S&W Magnum. In the discussion of the last, the 10mm is acknowledged, though disparaged by some b/c some shooters “limp wrist” the gun and have resulting problems that one doesn’t have with a revolver.

So. 3 of the 8 cartridges are actually pistol cartridges, another is a 12 ga slug, and most of the others are very powerful rifle rounds. What criteria they used for “best”? Not stated, though it seems like the primary one was popular opinion around the campfire during the magazine staff’s annual picnic.

 

[Antihero]

15rd is less than 4 seconds of ammo for a proficient shooter making decent hits at close range.

4 seconds to being bear chow seems really close.

Bear are not lumbering slow beasts and 4 seconds isnt likely firing heavier rounds of anything.

Multiple rounds fired is a dumb plan in any situation, let alone under pressure. You need to be able to do it in one or 2 and 15 rounds that didn't penetrate enough is like using birdshot. If it doesn't penetrate enough, it doesn't matter.

 

[Antihero]

1. What’s your feeling about the 41 magnum?
2. Is the 7 1/2” barrel on the S&W Performance Center 460XVR too much and too heavy?
3. Hard cast or mono-metal bullets?

41magnum is good for what it is. It's also heavily outclassed by even the 44mag. Which.....weighs almost the exact same and will come in the exact same gun as the 41 since there isnt a frame size for the 41. There is no upside to the 41 and multiple downsides.

Too much is better than too little.

I prefer hard cast but whatever shoots best in your gun

 

[Antihero]

The thing is, that if a person can effectively dump 15 rounds into center mass, that person probably won't have to use all 15 and
It's still nice to have the additional chances, otherwise, I would just carry one of my single shot Thompsons.

Why do you think that?

You've glossed over completely that the 10mm maybe couldn't hit hard enough. Why not shoot it with a 28 gauge and bird shot? Lots of impacts there

 

[Antihero]

Some of these responses make me fear what people are like hunting...

" Don't need to even be a good shot, I got 15 rounds of 22lr.....15 rounds of 100ftlbs means I'm firing 1500ftlbs at it!"

Ffs

 

[WrongHanded]

Some of these responses make me fear what people are like hunting...

" Don't need to even be a good shot, I got 15 rounds of 22lr.....15 rounds of 100ftlbs means I'm firing 1500ftlbs at it!"

Ffs

To be fair, being charged by a Grizzly is less like hunting, and more like being attacked by a 300lbs well muscled and crazy guy whose on PCP. It's a defensive situation, and that changes the shooting dynamic. Many people would prefer faster follow up shots, rather than trust their ability to place one very powerful shot right where it needs to go. It's hard to fault anyone for feeling that way.

 

[mcb]

The combination of bruins and handguns always bring out the most level-headed and cool-headed discussion. Why is that?

Bears are simple flesh and blood creatures they are not bullet proof we have multiple well document cases of big bears being stopped by 9mm and even smaller caliber handgun rounds in some cases. Some of those incidents have been linked to up thread by other members. A handgun of nearly any caliber is far more successful than not according the limited data we have at our disposal. This is not to say that 9mm and smaller is a wise or good choice but that bears, even big bears, can be killed by these less than optimal weapons in the hands of a skilled and/or lucky defenders. Just like any lethal defensive encounter; the first rule is have a gun. The rest is secondary.

Remember we are not talking about hunting bears with these weapons but using them for defense against bears in situations we would rather the bear just leave us alone. In that context each users has to balance the utility of the chosen sidearm against all the other aspects of whatever primary task brought them into bear country. In that context:

I see the logic of the high cap double stack pistols for bear defense.

I see the logic of the big 4X caliber revolvers for bear defense.

Not sure I can find fault with either strategy assuming the bearer (pun intended ) is proficient and practiced with their chosen weapon. But then again I would rather have my Javelin... I ain't bein' bear chow

 

[Antihero]

To be fair, being charged by a Grizzly is less like hunting, and more like being attacked by a 300lbs well muscled and crazy guy whose on PCP. It's a defensive situation, and that changes the shooting dynamic. Many people would prefer faster follow up shots, rather than trust their ability to place one very powerful shot right where it needs to go. It's hard to fault anyone for feeling that way.

Sure, but what instructor says " when faced with a threat just empty that freaking magazine dude!"

You have to place your shots no matter how many you have, and using a lesser powered round so you can shoot more ineffective rounds into your target is bluntly idiotic.

Yes it is a defensive situation but you still have to use enough round. There's plenty of people who recommend a round that can physically break the bear down by breaking bones. A 300 lb well muscled guy isn't really apt because you still have a thick pelt and fat to go thru. It's not at all like a person....at all.

 

[WrongHanded]

Sure, but what instructor says " when faced with a threat just empty that freaking magazine dude!"

You have to place your shots no matter how many you have, and using a lesser powered round so you can shoot more ineffective rounds into your target is bluntly idiotic.

Yes it is a defensive situation but you still have to use enough round. There's plenty of people who recommend a round that can physically break the bear down by breaking bones. A 300 lb well muscled guy isn't really apt because you still have a thick pelt and fat to go thru. It's not at all like a person....at all.

I agree, shot placement is paramount. But many people would like a faster follow-up shot if they straight up miss (which is a very real concern in such a stressful situation). And whilst I don't subscribe to the idea of 9mm FMJ for bear defense, if someone can shoot rapidly and accurately enough to keep all (or even most) of their rounds hitting that bear's face, I think that'll probably do the job. People with splits faster than mine can do such a thing.

I wasn't suggesting a 300lb guy on PCP was like a bear. I was simply making a comparison as far as self defense against something larger, more powerful, and hard to stop, that will be able to kill you if it gets to you. And also a contrast between that and hunting, where you get to choose whether or not you engage.

 

[jmohme]

Sure, but what instructor says " when faced with a threat just empty that freaking magazine dude!"

You have to place your shots no matter how many you have, and using a lesser powered round so you can shoot more ineffective rounds into your target is bluntly idiotic.

Yes it is a defensive situation but you still have to use enough round. There's plenty of people who recommend a round that can physically break the bear down by breaking bones. A 300 lb well muscled guy isn't really apt because you still have a thick pelt and fat to go thru. It's not at all like a person....at all.

So what do you carry when wandering in Bear country? And how many rapidly advancing angry Grizzly bears have you killed with one shot?
Just would like to know so I can dispose of my all but worthless 10mm and properly equip myself before I visit Grizzly infested territories.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

While I've never had to defend myself from a grizzly bear, my wife and I came upon one in Glacier N.P. a few years back. After a moment of eye contact, the bear took off. I'm firmly convinced that if he'd come at me as fast as he ran off, I'd have been very hard pressed to clear leather. At least this case, 15 rounds would have probably been useless. A gun, that when pressed against an object could go out of battery doesn't appeal to me. In big bear country I carry a .44 Mag.

 

[jski]

There’s only one pistol cartridge in the list?? Really? Let’s see...there’s also the .44 Magnum...and...#8 on the list, the...wait for it...the .357 S&W Magnum. In the discussion of the last, the 10mm is acknowledged, though disparaged by some b/c some shooters “limp wrist” the gun and have resulting problems that one doesn’t have with a revolver.

So. 3 of the 8 cartridges are actually pistol cartridges, another is a 12 ga slug, and most of the others are very powerful rifle rounds. What criteria they used for “best”? Not stated, though it seems like the primary one was popular opinion around the campfire during the magazine staff’s annual picnic.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa!

I would have thought of 41 magnum as a starting point.

 

[DocRock]

As ever, all one really needs is a 22 revolver.






And a disposable companion.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I live in Alaska. I don't claim to be the ultimate outdoorsman nor a world-class hunter.

However, I carry 45 Super (or SMC). 255 grain hardcasts from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap.

Pawn shop XD45 tactical. No modification to run reliably for small batches.

13 rounds capacity in a $300 pistol... Can't find better value, I promise. I'm sure the bear will say the same thing about me for dinner.

 

[Antihero]

So what do you carry when wandering in Bear country? And how many rapidly advancing angry Grizzly bears have you killed with one shot?
Just would like to know so I can dispose of my all but worthless 10mm and properly equip myself before I visit Grizzly infested territories.

I live in black bear country, so your 10mm would do fine here. I carry a Blackhawk in 45 Colt loaded heavy.

I haven't had to shoot a bear thankfully, there's been a few times where it was close though.

Bear are..... way faster than people think. I once had a bear charge at me and before I could actually draw my dog chased it off. My Anatolian Shepherd at full gallop was barely catching up, these are fast dogs. It was in deep woods and the whole thing was over in less than 4 seconds.