Berry's 124 gr. hbfp-tp load data with cfe pistol

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Prowler53

Prowler53

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I ran for some bullets today and they were out of my usual Berry's 124 RN, so I grabbed a box of Berry's 124 gr. hbfp-tp. I've never used these or anything similar as of yet. I could not find any load data in my manuals for this type of bullet using CFE pistol. Anyone using these that could give me somewhere to start?
 
I'm using 5.2 gr CFE @ 1.135 OAL for my RN's. I just did a plunk test with the Hollow Base Round Nose TP with my Springfield XD Mod 2. Needed to reduce OAL for that bullet to 1.0525.
It seems I had to reduce the OAL quite a bit for it to pass compared to the RN's @ 1.135. Is that a typical drop in OAL from round nose to FP?
Hodgdon data shows 4.9 grain Min - 5.5 grain Max using OAL of 1.150. If I'm using OAL of 1.0525 how much much do I need to reduce powder load?
Did anyone ever find that this to be confusing? LOL BTW....Thanks for everyone who is helping me along!
 
I haven't use any CFE but I have used the Berry's Hollow Base bullets in both 9mm and 380 and find them to group a slightly bit better. I buy them when there is a sale.
 
Prowler53 after reading your last post I had to go check my log book. I too load 9mm for a XD Mod2 and find the 124 gr. HBRNTP I am loading to 1.160" and with the 124 gr. HBFPTP I'm loading to 1.060".. The normal 115gr RN Berry's I'm loading to 1.135" - 1.130"..
 
kmw1954 said:
Prowler53 after reading your last post I had to go check my log book. I too load 9mm for a XD Mod2 and find the 124 gr. HBRNTP I am loading to 1.160" and with the 124 gr. HBFPTP I'm loading to 1.060".. The normal 115gr RN Berry's I'm loading to 1.135" - 1.130"..
Click to expand...

Ok...So my OAL drop from RN to HBFPTP is pretty close to what you have. Thanks for taking the time to look that up!
 
tightgroup tiger said:
Use the same data that you use with the Berry's plated round nose. You could even add a .1 gr due to the hollow base.
Click to expand...

This statement usually means there is some confusion about what the hollow base does to the powder chamber.

Let's say you're loading 2 bullets of the same weight, both have the exact same nose profile, say round nose, one is a flat base and one is a hollow base. The Berry bullets are a good comparison for this.

If you load them to the same OAL, there is no change in the internal powder chamber in the case due to the hollow base. Do you know why?
 
fxvr5 said:
If you load them to the same OAL, there is no change in the internal powder chamber in the case due to the hollow base. Do you know why?
Click to expand...

Because supposedly the displacement size of the camber doesn't change due to the base cavity and the extra length added to maintain weight. Though this doesn't also mean that the internal pressures remain the same. Do you know why?
 
kmw1954 said:
Because supposedly the displacement size of the camber doesn't change due to the base cavity and the extra length added to maintain weight. Though this doesn't also mean that the internal pressures remain the same. Do you know why?
Click to expand...

fxvr5 said:
This statement usually means there is some confusion about what the hollow base does to the powder chamber.

Let's say you're loading 2 bullets of the same weight, both have the exact same nose profile, say round nose, one is a flat base and one is a hollow base. The Berry bullets are a good comparison for this.

If you load them to the same OAL, there is no change in the internal powder chamber in the case due to the hollow base. Do you know why?
Click to expand...


Please the suspense is killing us!
 
fxvr5 said:
If you load them to the same OAL, there is no change in the internal powder chamber in the case due to the hollow base. Do you know why?
Click to expand...
Assuming the same bullet makeup (Check), nose profile (Check) and OAL (Check), yes. :)
 
tightgroup tiger said:
Use the same data that you use with the Berry's plated round nose. You could even add a .1 gr due to the hollow base.
Click to expand...
Ok...I understand the hollow base will actually allow more powder, however my OAL is dropped to 1.0525 (at 1.0530 it just barely touches the lands) at 1.0525 the bullet clears and it drops freely from the barrel.
I've done some calculating with bullet size between the RN and the HBFPTP and seating depth. It seems the HBFPTP is seated .038" deeper into the case. So do you think the extra seating depth with the hollow back
will allow me to start with a minimum load of 4.9 gr. CFE vs the current 5.2 grains I'm using with my RN's @ 1.135 OAL?
 
Prowler53 said:
Ok...I understand the hollow base will actually allow more powder, however my OAL is dropped to 1.0525 (at 1.0530 it just barely touches the lands) at 1.0525 the bullet clears and it drops freely from the barrel.
I've done some calculating with bullet size between the RN and the HBFPTP and seating depth. It seems the HBFPTP is seated .038" deeper into the case. So do you think the extra seating depth with the hollow back
will allow me to start with a minimum load of 4.9 gr. CFE vs the current 5.2 grains I'm using with my RN's @ 1.135 OAL?
Click to expand...
I think it is wise to err on the side of caution. 4.9 gr. would be a good starting point, for a new profile to you bullet. :)

I would only load a few to be sure they work the action.
 
I'm also happy with 5.2 grains CFEPistol under a Berry's 124, at OAL of 1.150. FPS of that load is 1071 fps ±11.6 SD. For a 115 grain bullet, I drop to 4.8 grains of CFEPistol and 1.120 OAL.
 
Prowler53 said:
Ok...I understand the hollow base will actually allow more powder, NOPE however my OAL is dropped to 1.0525 (at 1.0530 it just barely touches the lands) at 1.0525 the bullet clears and it drops freely from the barrel.
I've done some calculating with bullet size between the RN and the HBFPTP and seating depth. It seems the HBFPTP is seated .038" deeper into the case. So do you think the extra seating depth with the hollow back
will allow me to start with a minimum load of 4.9 gr. CFE vs the current 5.2 grains I'm using with my RN's @ 1.135 OAL?
Click to expand...

See post #9.
 
Prowler53 said:
. It seems the HBFPTP is seated .038" deeper into the case. So do you think the extra seating depth with the hollow back
will allow me to start with a minimum load of 4.9 gr. CFE vs the current 5.2 grains I'm using with my RN's @ 1.135 OAL?
Click to expand...

The one thing to always remember that when all else remains the same, seating depth will alter case pressure. Deeper = more pressure, Longer = less pressure. So by starting at the beginning weight and by just going deeper with the bullet one could reach max pressure w/o increasing powder charge.

In the case of the Berry's which is the only bullet company that produces a Hollow Base Plated bullet it creates some confusion because of the 2 different profiles they provide. They may be the same weight but they load completely different and most powder companies do not provide a listing for each one.. Still if one loads to the starting point with the recommended OAL for this particular bullet one should be within a safe margin.

After a few test rounds to check for form and function if all appears safe and normal one can then start to either try a reduced load to determine function, will the gun still feed, eject and lock back the slide on the final round. For me that sets the Starting load. Then start the Ladder Up.
 
fxvr5 said:
This statement usually means there is some confusion about what the hollow base does to the powder chamber.

Let's say you're loading 2 bullets of the same weight, both have the exact same nose profile, say round nose, one is a flat base and one is a hollow base. The Berry bullets are a good comparison for this.

If you load them to the same OAL, there is no change in the internal powder chamber in the case due to the hollow base. Do you know why?
Click to expand...

But in the OPs question they are NOT the same profile. One is Flat the other Round.

The COAL is not the issue, the actual seating depth of the projectile is. How much case Volume is left after the the different bullets are seated. Is the slight increase of the bullet length offset by the hollow base? How is that calculated?
Do you know?
 
Rule3 said:
But in the OPs question they are NOT the same profile. One is Flat the other Round.

The COAL is not the issue, the actual seating depth of the projectile is. How much case Volume is left after the the different bullets are seated. Is the slight increase of the bullet length offset by the hollow base? How is that calculated?
Do you know?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what i'm looking for. How do I even determine where to start with a safe load? Without knowing the answer to that question, my starting load would be a pure guess. I've looked everywhere for that answer and came up blank.
 
Prowler53 said:
That is exactly what i'm looking for. How do I even determine where to start with a safe load? Without knowing the answer to that question, my starting load would be a pure guess. I've looked everywhere for that answer and came up blank.
Click to expand...

One of the reasons I switched to Western Powders like Ramshot and Accurate. On their website they seem to have the broadest coverage of load data for plated bullets, especially Berry's. Again the curve ball comes in as Berry's is the only one offering Hollow Base Plated bullets.
 
Prowler53 said:
I'm using 5.2 gr CFE @ 1.135 OAL for my RN's.
Click to expand...
► Which RN ??? I take it you mean the Berry Mfg 124gr RN. If so, then 1.135" is an excellent OAL for that bullet in your pistol.


Prowler53 said:
I just did a plunk test with the Hollow Base Round Nose TP with my Springfield XD Mod 2. Needed to reduce OAL for that bullet to 1.052".
Click to expand...
Two ideas....
► I advise going back and trying that again. The ogive on the Berry 124gr RN and the Berry 124gr HBRN are exactly the same. Therefore they should (and can) use the same exact OAL of 1.135".

► The material from the void in the base of the HB bullet is exactly the same amount of material as was added to the skirt. Therefore the volume inside the case is exactly the same for the RN or the HBRN. The only load difference will be the tiny increase in sliding friction the longer bullet creates. Thus your load for CFE will be very nearly the same at the 1.135" OAL. I'd start at 5.0gr and work up to 5.3gr in 0.1gr increments. You may well decide that 5.2gr works equally well with either.

Hope this helps.
 
For a given bullet weight, the most important variable in seating the bullet is the internal case volume remaining when the bullet is seated. OAL is just a proxy for that because it's easy to measure. (This assumes you're off the lands and all else is equal.)

The berry's HB bullets may be longer, but because of the hollow base they maintian the same approximate internal case volume as the RN when seated to the same OAL. The RN and HBRN are generally interchangable. ***

The simple situation would be going from a RN to a FP bullet of the same weight. The reduction in OAL would be equal to the difference in bullet lengths. ***

Your situation involves 2 variables, the point and the base geometry and it's not so simple. If you had a 124 HBRN you could calculate the new OAL as above. I just happen to have some and they measure .619". So now you can calculate your new OAL and load a few test rounds. (I am assuming that the hollow base geometry remains the same between the two bullets. I have no way to verify it, so proceed with caution.) ***

*** Note: The above is generally true from a powder charge point of view and will put you in the ball park very close to home base. Drop your charge by a bit for the first test rounds if you're already near max. A chronograph will be most helpful.
 
Last edited:
Prowler53 said:
That is exactly what i'm looking for. How do I even determine where to start with a safe load? Without knowing the answer to that question, my starting load would be a pure guess. I've looked everywhere for that answer and came up blank.
Click to expand...

I do not understand why there is over 20 posts on this? Hodgdon has the data for your bullet withe CFE powder?? (yes they use a RN TP(thick Plate) You say you have the FLAT Nose Which will result in a slightly different COAL (usually flat nose are shorter)

Other than that if you look at data sat from Western powders you can compare the "HB" 124 bullet to other bullets of the same weight. To me the start and max loads differences(between bullets) are so small I really do not think it is worth getting a headache over.:)

Use the start load and go for it.;)

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
 
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