Berry's 148 gr HBWC for .357 mag

[SSN Vet]

I picked up a box of 250 while swinging by Cabelas Saturday.

Hodgdon/Winchester list loads for the Hornady 148 gr LHBWC with W231 which make no sense to me....

in a 38 spl. case they give 3.5 gr. start and 4.0 gr. max.

in a .357 case they give 3.0 gr start and 3.4 gr. max.

I'm looking for an accurate target load for my Taurus 689 with a 6.5" barrel using W231 (I've got a LOT of it).

Anyone using this bullet for .357? Any good loads to share?

I have a decent amount of 38 and 357 brass, but prefer to shoot .357 brass so I don't gum up the cylinder chambers so far back.

 

[LopezEL]

3g of bullseye works awesome in a 38 special case for me in my smith m52 wadcutter pistol. I can load it down to 2.7g of bullseye and it still cycles. I shoot the same load in my smith 686 6" barrel and its equally as accurate.

Shouldn't be a huge difference to get the same velocity out of the bullet from the .357 mag brass. I'd start at 3g bullseye.

 

[Walkalong]

Both the Berrys 148 Gr DEWC & the 148 Gr HBWC shoot great in .357 brass. I load them at 1.380 which has about .1 out of the case to help it align in the throats.

I shot this group Sun morning.

 

[Steve C]

Difference is wad cutters come in hollow base and solid base or double ended. The base of the hollow base wad cutters expand when fired engaging the rifling and sealing in the bore. Anything but a light load can expand the skirt tight enough against the bore or even in the case that it can tear off leaving a bore obstruction or cause the center of the bullet to blow out leaving the rest of the bullet stuck. Use the lower data for hollow base wad cutters.

Solid and DE WC's are simply a flat nose bullet and can be loaded much heavier though the data is usually for target load velocities only.

 

[rcmodel]

which make no sense to me....

I have noticed that anomaly in the Hodgdon/Horn HBWC load data before.

Only explanation I can think of is, they are loading to velocity rather then pressure.

The test data for the .38 was shot in a 7.7" barrel, and the .357 was shot in a 10" barrel.

Could it be the soft-swaged & dry lubed Horn HBWC bullets are running out of lube in the longer barrel and causing leading if pushed as fast as in the shorter .38 Spl barrel they used??

Was I you, with plated bullets, I would try 3.5 - 4.0 grains in .357 cases and see how they do. You simply can't get in pressure trouble, or even close to it with that light a load in a .357 revolver.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

Yep.

3.5 to 3.7 Grs of a fast burning powder for me, but like rcmodel posted, 4.0 would be safe by a wide margin.

 

[SSN Vet]

Well according to my notes, the .37cc disk throws 3.8 gr. of W231, so that's what I'll try first.

Anything but a light load can expand the skirt tight enough against the bore or even in the case that it can tear off leaving a bore obstruction

I loaded the Berry's 148 gr. DEWC when I first started out, specifically because I was affraid of this happening. I'll definately check the barrel clear after each of the first six shots.... thanks for the reminder

 

[Walkalong]

3.8 Grs of W-231 will be a good place to start. Probably get around 700 to 725 FPS from a 6" tube

 

[Steve C]

After looking at the Hodgdon data and if one uses the "print" function you get full information on the load, including the primer. On the .357 mag loads the primer is listed as a WSPM and on the .38 spl loads its listed as a WSP so the difference int he load data and pressure is the prmer used as it is the main difference between the 2 that would cause higher pressure.

 

[MrBorland]

3.8 Grs of W-231 will be a good place to start. Probably get around 700 to 725 FPS from a 6" tube

If the OP is referring to Berry's 148gr plated HBWC, be aware that, according to their website, they need to be pushed faster than a standard LHBWC. I'm betting you'll end up at over 4 grains W-231, but I'd work my way up to that. A chrono would be a big help getting to where you need to be.

From: http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14487-c13-g8-b0-p0-.38_Cal_148gr_HBWC.aspx

"When loading for these bullets, you need to use data that will attain 800 fps as a minimum. Most of the data for this bullet weight was created using a dead soft lead projectile with velocities under the 800 fps and will not work for a this bullet at those lower velocities."

 

[SSN Vet]

so the difference int he load data and pressure is the prmer used

Ah ha! That makes sense....

I always load my full power magnum loads with 2400 and std. SP primers, so I always forget about the magnum primer thing.

When loading for these bullets, you need to use data that will attain 800 fps as a minimum

Thanks for pointing that out.... I usually buy Berry's off of their web site, but this was an impulse buy at Cabelas and I missed that info. I was always under the impression that Berry's were swaged lead cores under the plating, so I'm a little suprised at that note. But perhaps the plating itself is what makes the bullet require more pressure to obturate and fill the lands.

My notes show the next disk size up dropping 4.2 to 4.3 gr. so that would be the next step for me.

I really should get the adjustable charge bar some day.

And just as an OBTW... this type of conversation is exactly why I love reloading. Really provides a "cool" outlet for my inner geek.

 

[Walkalong]

When loading for these bullets, you need to use data that will attain 800 fps as a minimum

While well meaning, and yes, 800 FPS would definitely keep him out of trouble, it is simply not true that he must attain 800 FPS to be safe from stuck plated bullets.

I am not guessing either, as I have shot a boatload of plated bullets in .38 and .357 cases, including many Berrys 148 Gr DEWC & HBWC's.

What you do need to be sure of is using a powder that does well if it is against the bullet (powder forward) vs against the primer (powder back) so no matter where the powder is you will not get a squib load from a powder that does not fair well away from the primer.

I test all my light loads (most others as well) both powder back and powder forward. That lets me know if it is safe for those slower velocities in light target loads.

One load of SR 4756 in .357 brass that gave an avg 931 FPS with the powder back from a 6" barrel with a 125 Gr plated bullet stuck the first one powder forward. (Brass rod time)

In this application, Clays does well, WST does pretty well, Competition does very well, and W-231 does pretty well powder forward, as long as the charge is not too light.

3.4 Grs Competition and a Berrys 148 Gr DEWC gave me 736 FPS powder back and 698 FPS powder forward from a 6" barrel. That is very good PF number. Very good.

Some powder forward velocities will be 3 to 4 hundred (and more) FPS slower than those attained powder back. That is where folks can get into trouble, and where I feel some squib loads come from.

I have seen plated bullet velocities in the three hundreds exit 6" barrels. That does not mean 400 is safe by any means. I look to be able to maintain over 600 FPS no matter where in the case the powder is. That gives me margin for error etc. I really like to stay at 650 and above.

My slowest Berrys 148 Gr plated bullet loads give me nearly 700 FPS powder forward, and over 700 FPS powder back.

So.....I guess I am pretty close to the 800 mark after all.

My point is slower will exit, but we need to know what our load will do powder forward. I have no doubt many squibs are caused from the powder being forward in the case. We start with the barrel down, raise it up and fire.

Another example:

.38 Spl, 4.0 Grs Competition, Berrys 125 Gr TrFP

Powder back avg: 772 FPS

Powder forward avg: 555 FPS ( The low of the string was 508)

508 FPS is 217 FPS slower on avg than powder back (I have seen worse) and is getting close to a possible stuck bullet. Like I said, I have seen 300ish exit the barrel, but it did not go far.

Hope this helps. AC

3.8 Grs of W-231 will be a good place to start. Probably get around 700 to 725 FPS from a 6" tube

If the OP is referring to Berry's 148gr plated HBWC, be aware that, according to their website, they need to be pushed faster than a standard LHBWC. I'm betting you'll end up at over 4 grains W-231

I agree, he may well indeed end up over 4.0 Grs of W-231, but firmly believe 3.8 Grs is safe to start. Yes, plated can be stuck much more easily than slick lead HBWC's, and yes, plated need to be faster than lead to be safe. Just not 800 FPS if you know what your load will do PB & PF. Berrys is being safe. Even still, I have proven that some loads that break 900 FPS PB can stick a plated bullet PF.

 

[loadedround]

Just had to stick my big nose into this discussion. I had shot bullsye pistol for many years and most of us agreed that the lightest charge that functioned through our pistols was also the most accurate. In case of the 148 gr HBWC, the standard load we used then was 2.7 gr of Bullsye with HBWC seated flush in the case mouths. This worked great in my S&W 52, and my competitor's 38spl Colt Gold Cups. Even the die hard revolver shooters were using that load. Today I would use the recommended starting load for WW231.

 

[Walkalong]

That was lead of course.

 

[loadedround]

Lead of course. Never saw jacketed HBWC bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

We had been discussing plated HBWC's. Just wanted to be clear, as 2.7 Grs of Bullseye may not be safe. It may not be enough to get the plated bullet out of the barrel every time. Lead, no problem. Nope, no jacketed HBWC's out there.

 

[WNC Seabee]

I'm curious as to what the OP ended up with for a load. I accidentally picked up a box of these today. Thought I was grabbing 158gr FP!

I also have buckets of W231 to burn. Looks like I'll start at 4.0 and see where that gets me.

 

[Walkalong]

Should work splendidly.

 

[GLOOB]

I recommend against lead starting loads with these bullets. Plated not equal to lead, especially with the amount of bearing surface on these projectiles! I loaded a few using 3.7 gr HP38, magnum case, CCI 550 magnum primer, seated flush with mouth - and on a particularly cold day I got one stuck in the end of the barrel of my 6" 686.

Nowadays, I load 4.2 grains HP38 for this bullet. Recoil and report is still negligible, and the bullets are propelled with all the ferocity of a slingshot.

 

[Walkalong]

I used 4.2 Grs with the Berrys 148 Gr HBWC in .357 cases loaded long at 1.405 for close to 700 FPS powder back against the primer and close to 600 FPS powder forward against the bullet in 65 degree weather from a 6" barrel.

I used WSP primers, which give me better ignition and more velocity in light loads in .38/.357 cases than CCI 500 (SP) primers do.

I started lower than that of course. (3.8 IIRC)

If WNC Seabee is using .357 brass and loads them flush it will give even more velocity. If he (assumed) is using .38 SPl brass it will give more FPS as well.

I believe 4.0 Grs is an excellent place to start IMO. As usual, WNC Seabee should watch for stuck bullets etc as he works up to whatever powder charge he settles on.

 

[WNC Seabee]

I used 4.2 Grs with the Berrys 148 Gr HBWC in .357 cases loaded long at 1.405 for close to 700 FPS powder back against the primer and close to 600 FPS powder forward against the bullet in 65 degree weather from a 6" barrel.

I used WSP primers, which give me better ignition and more velocity in light loads in .38/.357 cases than CCI 500 (SP) primers do.

I started lower than that of course. (3.8 IIRC)

If WNC Seabee is using .357 brass and loads them flush it will give even more velocity. If he (assumed) is using .38 SPl brass it will give more FPS as well.

I believe 4.0 Grs is an excellent place to start IMO. As usual, WNC Seabee should watch for stuck bullets etc as he works up to whatever powder charge he settles on.

Thanks for the info!

I just so happened to have loaded up 10 each using 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 last night. I am using .357 brass and loaded just a bit longer than flush. I'll get them to the range tomorrow and see how it goes.

Will be used mainly in a 4" GP 100 and 6" M28.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is a pic of mine.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6370669&postcount=74