Black Bear...

[Vince Cyr]

OK. I've asked this before, but I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been, and I got some pretty vehement answers as a result. I'll try to outline my thoughts a little better. First off, I'll say that in NY, any centerfire is legal for big game, so my idea is at least legal here. Secondly, I'm not planning on doing this myself. I just want to get that out there. I can see this scenario happening, but I'm not planning on it .
I'll set the stage. You are out hunting deer with a .223, which is as stated, legal, and as long as the ammo is appropriate, suitable for game that size. You never see a deer, but you do see a bear. Now, when you get a big game licence in NY, you automatically get a bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get, and bear season is open pretty much when deer season is. So you have a legal means, and legal opportunity. What I don't know is whether you should take the shot. I can see it being possible with the upper end of the .223 spectrum, and a smaller bear(around 200# or so), I just am not sure if it is advisable. This guy uses the 70gn TSX (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94628-223-Barnes-70-Grain-TSX-Performance/&page=1) on hogs pretty extensively, with a lot of success. He even has a few in 425# weight class, and a big pig is at least as tough as a bear, right?(I don't have any experience hunting either, so I'm not certain). Now, I probably wouldn't take the shot with most of the 60-64gn ammo recommended for deer, but like I said, think the heavier pills in the 70 gn and up range should work(emphasis on should. This is all hypothetical). So, with a heavy bullet, and all the requirements of shot placement and range reduction are met, would it be an advisable shot? I know it wouldn't be an ideal situation, far from it, I just was wondering if it could be doable.

 

[badkarmamib]

If I could carry a second firearm in bear country legally, I would, and it would be bigger than .223. If I wanted a bear, I would have something bigger to begin with, but, if all I had was .223, and had a steady rest and a headshot scenario, then I would probably be tempted. Too many variables and uncertainties for ME to attempt a boiler-room shot. That being said,...

 

[RPRNY]

Bell killed elephants with the 6.5 Mannlicher. Natives in Alaska are said to use 223 on quite a lot of big game. Most Catskills black bear will be about big white tail sized. Yes, you can kill black bear with 223.

Having said that, in my opinion, 223 is not suitable for ethical use on deer or bear for the vast majority of shooters given that it requires precise shot placement to achieve bleed out in a time frame where tracking recovery is likely.

 

[FL-NC]

I'd do it. Put one in the head, be prepared to send more.

 

[FL-NC]

Bell killed elephants with the 6.5 Mannlicher. Natives in Alaska are said to use 223 on quite a lot of big game. Most Catskills black bear will be about big white tail sized. Yes, you can kill black bear with 223.

Having said that, in my opinion, 223 is not suitable for ethical use on deer or bear for the vast majority of shooters given that it requires precise shot placement to achieve bleed out in a time frame where tracking recovery is likely.

All hunting requires precise shot placement. If someone isn't up to making that happen in a given scenario, then that someone should not be attempting that shot. The last 3 deer I killed were with 223. 2 were DRT, one ran 50 yards and fell over dead.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Would I? I would. I wouldn't advise just anybody do it though. I'm saying that because I really know my rifle and my loads and routinely kill big pigs with it. For someone not so confident in their rifle and it's capabilities, I would suggest using something in a calibers with a three as the first number.

If you know the exact right spot to put the round and know you can put it there, proceed. If not, get some more uumph.

 

[red rick]

If I thought I might have a good chance of shooting a bear , I would be carrying a larger caliber rifle . I would not take the shot with a .223 caliber .

 

[Patocazador]

Unless the .223 is the only gun you have, use a larger caliber. IMO 7mm and up would be the choice.

Robert Ruark said it best, "Use Enough Gun."

 

[eastbank]

this is a 600 lbs eastern black bear(the space between latter rungs is 14-16")and i don,t want to face a mad one armed with a .223 unless thats all i had at the time. they can be very fast and deadly at close ambushes ranges of under 50 yards. eastbank.

 

[Vince Cyr]

this is a 600 lbs eastern black bear and i don,t want to face a mad one armed with a .223 unless thats all i had at the time. they can be very fast and deadly at close ambushes ranges of under 50 yards. eastbank.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about a bear attacking somebody, or dealing with the larger of the breed(a really big bear around here is close to, but not quite, 500#). I was talking just happening across small to avg sized ones when deer hunting, which a .223 with proper ammo is an adequate choice for. Kinda a target of opportunity sort of thing. Not many people actually hunt bears around here, but with a growing population(we got 4 separate ones on trail cams a couple hundred yards from my house), encountering one while deer hunting is a real possibility.

 

[eastbank]

your life, your choice. yes a .223 will kill any bear in the world with one shot in the right place. 99 out of a 100 encounters may end in a bear going on its way or you may shoot and kill it with the right hit with a .223. i my self carry at least a 3006 for deer and bear. eastbank.

 

[horsey300]

OK. I've asked this before, but I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been, and I got some pretty vehement answers as a result. I'll try to outline my thoughts a little better. First off, I'll say that in NY, any centerfire is legal for big game, so my idea is at least legal here. Secondly, I'm not planning on doing this myself. I just want to get that out there. I can see this scenario happening, but I'm not planning on it .
I'll set the stage. You are out hunting deer with a .223, which is as stated, legal, and as long as the ammo is appropriate, suitable for game that size. You never see a deer, but you do see a bear. Now, when you get a big game licence in NY, you automatically get a bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get, and bear season is open pretty much when deer season is. So you have a legal means, and legal opportunity. What I don't know is whether you should take the shot. I can see it being possible with the upper end of the .223 spectrum, and a smaller bear(around 200# or so), I just am not sure if it is advisable. This guy uses the 70gn TSX (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94628-223-Barnes-70-Grain-TSX-Performance/&page=1) on hogs pretty extensively, with a lot of success. He even has a few in 425# weight class, and a big pig is at least as tough as a bear, right?(I don't have any experience hunting either, so I'm not certain). Now, I probably wouldn't take the shot with most of the 60-64gn ammo recommended for deer, but like I said, think the heavier pills in the 70 gn and up range should work(emphasis on should. This is all hypothetical). So, with a heavy bullet, and all the requirements of shot placement and range reduction are met, would it be an advisable shot? I know it wouldn't be an ideal situation, far from it, I just was wondering if it could be doable.

Hunting ANYTHING, with ANY CARTRIDGE, before I start, I ask myself, what's the worst that could happen if something goes wrong.? Simply put, your scenario makes the answer to this question too lengthy to make it viable. Too many things have to go right, that's not to say they won't, just that if they're not right, the mess is too big.

 

[Captcurt]

It would have to be a perfect head shot for me. I think that a 70gr behind the shoulder through the ribs would do it over time, but with a fat bear there would be little or no bloodtrail. I know that many who guide bowhunters want an arrow with a trail string, or dog to recover bears. Personally, I wouldn't be in the woods during deer season with a 223.

 

[MidRoad]

I think I'd feel more comfortable with 5 rounds of heavy .223 going into the boiler room than one recurve arrow....and people do that all the time,but doesn't means it's a good idea. Iwouldn't take the shot unless it was just the right conditions and I was very well acquainted with bear vitals. I believe they sit further back to than deer.

I know from a bad experience of tracking a friend's (well no longer friends for a different reason) bear who had a baaad shot with an arrow. 7 rounds from his .45 after two hours of suffering ended it. Poor bastard. Sounds it made will haunt me for the rest of my life.im 100% for clean ethical shots, if it's marginal I will not take it. Passed on a 55 yard broad broad side shot of a monster 9 pt this past bow season because I was not comfortable past 50...even if it was only 5 yards more than I max out practicing. Drew up but passed on a 350-400lb black bear that walked right under my stand ( yea I double checked my pants after) because I did not have an ideal shot and I kept picturing my old hunting pals bear.

 

[jmr40]

With that bullet I'm betting on complete penetration on any bear. As long as impact speeds are over 2000 fps expect good expansion. If he has taken 425 lb hogs with it then I say it is a proven bear load. I know black bear CAN get up to 500-600 lbs, but those are far from common. Most are in the 150-250 lb range. Not any larger than an average adult human.

That said, I'd personally use something bigger. I'm faced with a similar dilemma here. I've long said that a 223 with bullets designed for big game is more than adequate for deer. But I have larger caliber rifles and simply choose not to carry a 223 when big game hunting. The primary reason is that almost all my hunting is on public land in the North GA mountains. Deer populations are down here, but bear are plentiful. I'm more likely to get a shot at a bear and the seasons are virtually the same.

But while that wouldn't be my 1st choice, if I had a 223 in my hands, with that load in the chamber, and a legal bear came along, I'd take the shot.

 

[dh1633pm]

I live in NY and don't know a single person who uses 223 or 5.56 for that matter. I use the 45-70 due to the rifle being light and short and the round powerful enough for my needs. Got big or go home.

As for bear, I will take one, but only if it wants me more than I want him. Otherwise, they can go in peace. And yes, bears live around here.

 

[Vince Cyr]

I live in NY and don't know a single person who uses 223 or 5.56 for that matter.

Hmm... Must be a regional thing. I mean, 22 caliber centerfires aren't used by everybody for deer here, but they are far from uncommon. A lot of folks have used them for years (a few even for longer than they have been legal, but we won't count those), with a lot of success.

 

[Speedo66]

NY, unlike many other states, has no restraints on caliber in counties where rifle hunting is permitted. I don't understand under those circumstances why you would want to handicap yourself with a marginal caliber like .223 for deer or bear.

I personally think using that caliber for either is unethical. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I can already feel the heat from the flaming, but I'm tired of people who want to take their Mattel toys everywhere they go and use it for everything, proper or not.

 

[horsey300]

Hmm... Must be a regional thing. I mean, 22 caliber centerfires aren't used by everybody for deer here, but they are far from uncommon. A lot of folks have used them for years (a few even for longer than they have been legal, but we won't count those), with a lot of success.

.22 rimfires kill tons o critters every year too, still comes down to good idea/bad idea. I can see the .223 being used for deer, I don't love it myself personally mind you. But I think trying to make something fit a role it was never meant for is just a bad idea. I also don't recommend hunting with fmjs and most places call that illegal but one could argue that they'll still provide sufficient penetration..... a .22-250 with a bonded solid base, partition, or monometal controlled expansion is where I put the minimum line for bears, and that's just for me. For the average Joe hunter, I believe that in the situation you describe, a .308 or similar would be better served, cuz I don't know y'all and the public I've been exposed to in general hunting scenarios leaves me questioning if the restrictions on hunters are stringent enough. There ARE good hunters out there, but they don't try to justify their cartridge choice in a marginal context, because they already KNOW their limits with every gun they use. Nothing irritates me more than "shooters looking for a live target".

 

[dh1633pm]

Not convinced that 223 is the answer for white tail let alone bear. I am sure it will bring down a white tail. Not sure it will in my hands. Capable yes, but why not pick something more capable?

 

[.308 Norma]

I'm tired of people who want to take their Mattel toys everywhere they go and use it for everything, proper or not.

What? That kind of sounds like you don't put much stock in that old "beware of the man with one gun" thing.
BTW - I don't either. None at all.

 

[horsey300]

What? That kind of sounds like you don't put much stock in that old "beware of the man with one gun" thing.
BTW - I don't either. None at all.

I put stock in it, if it was "enough gun" in the first place when I first found Idaho would allow me to hunt black bears and elk with a .223 (though for some reason it's not recommended on their FAQ page) I thought to myself "wow! That is scary thought!" Until I realized, this lack of over bearing micro managing of game hunters suggests they expect THE HUNTER to have enough sense to not turn the hunting into a circus. I think the one gun adage applied to MEN with tools surviving and keeping their families fed with what they had available. Boys and their toys looking for moving targets are not the same thing .

 

[FL-NC]

Its my belief that anyone can screw up with any caliber, style of firearm, etc., but I'm amazed at those who forsake calibers like the 223 on the grounds that they have taken it as a mortal certainty that a disaster of some type WILL ensue. If all hunters operated within the limits of their skill and equipment, (yes, the arrow launching crowd too) there would be no need for these conversations. There would also be no misses or lost animals. I also firmly believe that the good marksman with the properly placed 223 has a better chance at both a quickly expired and successfully recovered animal than the guy who blows it for whatever reason and gut shoots a critter with a larger round.

 

[horsey300]

Its my belief that anyone can screw up with any caliber, style of firearm, etc., but I'm amazed at those who forsake calibers like the 223 on the grounds that they have taken it as a mortal certainty that a disaster of some type WILL ensue. If all hunters operated within the limits of their skill and equipment, (yes, the arrow launching crowd too) there would be no need for these conversations. There would also be no misses or lost animals. I also firmly believe that the good marksman with the properly placed 223 has a better chance at both a quickly expired and successfully recovered animal than the guy who blows it for whatever reason and gut shoots a critter with a larger round.

Agreed completely! Ideally I would prefer if they utilized a hunter proficiency course on the same basis as a hunter safety course.

 

[dh1633pm]

I think its a healthy debate. Something that I can pay attention to, contribute to, and learn from.