Black powder and Pyrodex

[Jenrick]

I have about a half pound of Pyrodex left over that is rather old, but will still light off (eventually). Is is possible to mix it in a charge with actual black powder (by volume of course), to use it up and go a little easier on the holy black? This would be for plinking, nothing where I'm worried about accuracy, standard deviations, etc.

 

[arcticap]

Yes, it's okay as long as the performance is satisfactory.
Someone posted about doing extensive testing using similar duplex loads in their flintlock.
He would use a booster charge of black powder in the pan and breech along with a main charge of 777 or Pyrodex just to prove that it was safe and to see how it would perform.
He used a chronograph to measure velocity and also posted many targets showing quickly fired groups.
His measuring and pouring method was very uniform in that he would always put the substitute powder into the powder measure first and then simply place the booster charge of black powder on top of that in the measure.
Then he would carefully dump it into the bore so the BP would most likely fall into the breech first closest to the vent hole.
I was surprised that he didn't pour them into the muzzle separately but he had really good sparking custom flintlocks.
After thousands of rounds he rarely if ever had any misfires and IIRC quite possibly none ever.
And the velocities were always very consistent too.

Some folks also do it with Blackhorn 209 in guns that it's not recommended for use in without any apparent issues.
I would be a little extra cautious about hangfires or cookoffs using old Pyrodex that's of questionable quality.
It might not burn as clean or as quickly and could be inconsistent.

What type of gun do you intend to use the duplex loads in?

 

[whughett]

Have you tried the Pyrodex alone ? Stored properly is age a concern. Black and smokeless have shelf life’s measured in decades.

 

[troy fairweather]

Pyrodex seems to take some time to light, even to the point where you can hold a flame to it. But when loaded works fine. I have some old pryodex I am about finished up there the first style of plastic bottles they made. Doing a duplex load is fine some guys even use some pistol powders but I'd stay with no or a substitute.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I have partial containers of Pyrodex that are over 25 years old and there is nothing wrong with it. Just use it up straight from the jug.

 

[sspierce8]

I bought 12 cans of Goex fffg in 1996, and still have 8 of them. It’s just as good today as it was then.

 

[Armored farmer]

I would trade pyrodex for black.
Anybody interested?

 

[.38 Special]

Every time a shooter loads with Pyrodex, God kills a kitten.

 

[whughett]

Gods not that cruel, he just takes a day from the shooter.

 

[.38 Special]

Gods not that cruel, he just takes a day from the shooter.

It's in the Old Testament.

 

[Jenrick]

The main reason I am looking to run a duplex load basically, is that I am getting very inconsistent ignition with the pyrodex. When it goes, it goes fine, it just may take 10-12 caps to get it to light off. I would primarily be shooting it out of my 2 band enfield, making up the bulk of the charge, with the BP as the initial powder to ignite. I will probably also do the same with my caplock pistol (old spanish caplock that I picked up for a song it was in such bad shape). I might try it out in my flint pistol using BP as the priming charge just to see if it will catch as well.

Mainly looking for a way to use it, and extend the use of the BP I have on hand for a while.

thanks for the replies, they have been very helpful.

 

[frontiergander]

10-12 caps and you still are trying to save the powder? :d buy a fresh can. If it still hang fires, switch nipples out to a better performing nipple design.Could even be that enfields powder channel is very small and the RS is not flowing through it, under the nipple. https://buckskinsbp.blogspot.com/2019/10/choices-galore-substitute-black-powder.html

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

If you have real Black Powder use it.
If you have had less than stellar performance from Pyrodex like most folks, then toss it.
If you want to mix it together fine, but you're just prolonging the agony.
Think of it like a bandage stuck to some hair, just yank it off and be done with it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The main reason I am looking to run a duplex load basically, is that I am getting very inconsistent ignition with the pyrodex .

Pyrodex is tougher to ignite. That's the point. It's actually black powder with some of the potassium nitrate switched to potassium perchlorate. That's how they got it to be classified as a flammable and not an explosive, which then removed the HazMat fees for shipping explosives, and removed the storage requirements for storing explosives.

Apparently Pyrodex knows there product can be troublesome, so with their pellets, I've been told that there is a wrong way and a right way to load them. The darker end goes toward the breech, because (I'm told) that thin, darker portion is actually black powder to ensure more reliable ignition. So as others have replied, a duplex load, or dropping 10 grains of real BP first, followed by the main charge accordingly adjusted for that starting load of BP should be fine.


LD

 

[whughett]

It's in the Old Testament.

I couldn’t find that on Google. Could you give me chapter and verse. Cat nor kitten is listed in the Protestant bible according to Wikipedia.
Off thread, just curious. Good trivia question.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Hmm...ever tried using a nipple primer? Treso makes one and its amazing. Its a spring loaded lil device that you just press against the nipple and it will neatly sprinkle a bit of black powder into the nipple chamber. THAT will guarantee ignition. Great lil device...i use it when i want to conserve store bought caps....ill make homemade caps and only put one lil roll cap dot inside the cap hull instead of 6-8 dots. This method paired with the Treso nipple primer gives guaranteed ignition using the very weak homemade cap. I can make really strong hot percussion caps but i sometimes like to conserve material and use up my large stash of german roll caps

 

[arcticap]

Switching to Pyrodex P can often help to solve ignition problems associated with using Pyrodex RS.

 

[whughett]

Hmm...ever tried using a nipple primer? Treso makes one and its amazing. Its a spring loaded lil device that you just press against the nipple and it will neatly sprinkle a bit of black powder into the nipple chamber. THAT will guarantee ignition. Great lil device...i use it when i want to conserve store bought caps....ill make homemade caps and only put one lil roll cap dot inside the cap hull instead of 6-8 dots. This method paired with the Treso nipple primer gives guaranteed ignition using the very weak homemade cap. I can make really strong hot percussion caps but i sometimes like to conserve material and use up my large stash of german roll caps

Are you saying you fill the cap with black powder.

 

[milemaker13]

Are you saying you fill the cap with black powder.

No, the nipple primer will drop a small amount of BP into the nipple hole, which is then covered with your percussion cap.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend's dumb brother topped up his black powder horn with Pyrodex. Mixed well, it shot fine.
I would not do it on purpose, what would be the gain?

Remember, the Pyrodex pilot plant blew up and killed the inventor, but Hodgdon pressed on.

 

[whughett]

Thanks, clear now was reading that as “ capper”. Duh.

 

[arcticap]

A friend's dumb brother topped up his black powder horn with Pyrodex. Mixed well, it shot fine.
I would not do it on purpose, what would be the gain?

Remember, the Pyrodex pilot plant blew up and killed the inventor, but Hodgdon pressed on.

Depending on the granulation of Pyrodex and the potency of the black powder, the gain could be increased velocity.
And if someone were to properly mix black powder in with their sub. powder, the gain may be better ignition.

I forgot to mention that some folks use magnum percussion caps, or a conversion nipple that uses center fire primers to solve their ignition issues.
Others might try a new, better performing nipple.

 

[frontiergander]

American pioneer plant blew up as well have other plants. Whats your point?

 

[TTv2]

The main reason I am looking to run a duplex load basically, is that I am getting very inconsistent ignition with the pyrodex. When it goes, it goes fine, it just may take 10-12 caps to get it to light off. I would primarily be shooting it out of my 2 band enfield, making up the bulk of the charge, with the BP as the initial powder to ignite. I will probably also do the same with my caplock pistol (old spanish caplock that I picked up for a song it was in such bad shape). I might try it out in my flint pistol using BP as the priming charge just to see if it will catch as well.

Mainly looking for a way to use it, and extend the use of the BP I have on hand for a while.

thanks for the replies, they have been very helpful.

Before you shoot, are you blasting a cap on an empty chamber to clear the flash hole and dry it out of any moisture? I do that before I shoot any of my black powder revolvers.

Also, are you slightly compressing the Pyrodex or heavily compressing it? I do a heavy compress because I can get more powder in the chamber, which means more power.

BTW, how much powder are you using per charge? Also, are you using P or something else? P is for pistol, it's equivalent to 3F black powder, which is what works best in pistols. Save the 2F stuff for long guns.

 

[Jenrick]

Hmm...ever tried using a nipple primer? Treso makes one and its amazing. Its a spring loaded lil device that you just press against the nipple and it will neatly sprinkle a bit of black powder into the nipple chamber. THAT will guarantee ignition.

Interesting I had never heard/seen about that, going to get one. Definitely worth trying out

If you have real Black Powder use it.
If you have had less than stellar performance from Pyrodex like most folks, then toss it.
If you want to mix it together fine, but you're just prolonging the agony.
Think of it like a bandage stuck to some hair, just yank it off and be done with it.

I actually had decent success with it when I first bought that canister, probably 10-12 years ago. Now not so much. When it will light off, it works just fine though. Hence if I can use it as the main charge with a BP booster to get it going, no reason to toss out a half pound.

Before you shoot, are you blasting a cap on an empty chamber to clear the flash hole and dry it out of any moisture? I do that before I shoot any of my black powder revolvers.

Also, are you slightly compressing the Pyrodex or heavily compressing it? I do a heavy compress because I can get more powder in the chamber, which means more power.

BTW, how much powder are you using per charge? Also, are you using P or something else? P is for pistol, it's equivalent to 3F black powder, which is what works best in pistols. Save the 2F stuff for long guns.

In order

Yep

Probably a light - medium compression

Enfield is 65 grs, and IIRC (it's in my range bag out in the shed) yes it's P Pyrdoex.