Blackpowder SBR?

[Roccobro]

So after watching Pirates of the Carribean, I had a hankering for a mannlicher stocked PB rifle. One of the arms used in the movie looked to be a 14" range and made me think.

1) Who makes some nice BP rifles that might scratch my new itch and

2) Does the GCA or any other legislation prohibit SBR blackpowder rifles?

I'm sure I can live with a nice 16-20" BP if it had the right look/feel of what Johnny Depp made look like fun in the movie. Is there a "contender" type long barreled, shoulder stocked "pistol" that walks the line using BP for propellant?

I'm a total noob at BP and could very well be missing some critical aspect in using BP in a long arm. I've seen some nifty looking BP "boot" guns that sell for $45 through SOG or someplace like that and figure a similar cheap rifle would be fun to cook up.

OK, let me have it guys! (Oh yeah, I'm in CA too)

Justin

 

[LAR-15]

You mean black powder muzzle loaders?

The NFA specifically exempts matchlock, flintlock and percussion ignitoned guns made in or before 1898 and replicas thereof

It's questionable if the NFA exempts 209 primer ignitioned muzzle loaders or similar 'in-line' guns.

 

[unspellable]

In-line

While they may not have used a 209 primer, in line ignition muzzle loaders predate the 1898 cut off date.

The BATF tried to put the clamps on 209 primed in lines and there was a go 'round. When the dust settled, in line ignition front loaders were still front loaders.

On the other hand, there are any number of modern front loaders that are not replicas of anything in particular. They still seem to be legal front loaders in the BATF's eyes. (At least until next Tuesday.)

 

[LAR-15]

BATFE declared primer ignitioned muzzle loaders firearms under the GCA until the law was changed in 1999.

So they are exempt from the GCA (generally)

It's the NFA that's the question mark

Just because a gun is a front stuffer doesn't make it exempt from Federal and state gun control laws

 

[Roccobro]

Yes, front loaders

Thanks for the responses. Still kinda iffy on the short barrel question but it looks promising. I've seen what Knight's Arms has done for BP in the last few years and I think I could live with using some sort of propellant package/spire bullet like theirs.

So, does anybody know where to find some "pirated" looking front stuffers? Is there a general rule of thumb on length of barrel for proper BP usage should I make or have made a replica?

Justin

 

[LAR-15]

Too short a barrel on a muzzle loading rifle or musket and the powder will not burn completely.

Same with a shotgun.

But you can make a short barrel rifle or shotgun out of a flintock, matchlock or percussion ignited gun w/o any Federal restrictions.

Good luck

 

[SaMx]

I've seen replica "dragoon" pistols that come with a detachable stock. They looked fun, and seem to be treated just like any other muzzleloader.

 

[ArmedBear]

It seems perfectly legal to sell detachable stocks and BP revolvers that fit them, even as a set, through the mail, to anyone over 18. If they're NFA, it sure isn't being enforced.

Look here:
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/Blunderbusses.SHTML

Too short a barrel on a muzzle loading rifle or musket and the powder will not burn completely.

Same with a shotgun.

Not entirely true. If this were strictly true, a black powder pistol wouldn't work. They do work.

Just like with modern powders, you need to choose a propellant that burns faster. With BP, that means using 3F instead of 2F.

You also don't use as big a charge, since BP burns relatively slowly anyway. Extra powder just gets expelled at the muzzle. That's why BP firearms tend to have longer barrels than their modern counterparts; it's also why modern magnum rifles usually ship with longer barrels than their non-magnum counterparts. Even with modern powders, if you want to keep pressures to a reasonable level, you need a longer barrel to get velocity from a slower-burning powder.

One way or another, if you make the barrel too short, you can't get all that much velocity from the thing.

That said, the famed Sharps Carbine of the US Cavalry used black powder, both as an early breechloader and as a brass-cartridge gun.

But "carbines" back then had 22" barrels.

 

[LAR-15]

I assumed he might use data gained from using 20+ inch barrels common on black powder rifles.

He wants a rifle, not a pistol so I was assuming he might use 'rifle' load data.

 

[VirgilCaine]

So, could you have a muzzleloading blackpowder shotgun that was as short as you wanted it?

 

[ArmedBear]

He wants a rifle, not a pistol so I was assuming he might use 'rifle' load data.

True enough, but the beauty of BP is that, since you pour your own powder into the thing, you can choose whatever load you like, without all the equipment you need to properly reload centerfire ammo.

 

[ArmedBear]

So, could you have a muzzleloading blackpowder shotgun that was as short as you wanted it?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_189&products_id=2016

This 12 Gauge has an 8" barrel. Weighs almost as much as an 870, though.

And remember, many muzzleloading pistols are smoothbores, so they work fine as shotguns.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_188&products_id=2013

There are a few items here that would probably be illegal if they weren't muzzleloaders:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_162_194

 

[parmamoon]

bp smooth bore pistol

Just curiouse how these get around NFA's "Any Other Weapon" definition.


(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.



I'm not accerting that these do fall within this definition but it seems like they were intentionally left out of the exemption.

 

[Roccobro]

YES!!!

Looks like the "Blunderbus" size fits the bill, maybe even something a couple inches longer. Looking through all the pirate sites it seems to me the one I saw briefly in the movie with full Mannlicher-like stocked isn't too period correct. Whether it is or not, I WANT ONE!

Thanks for all the help guys!

Justin

 

[wdlsguy]

bp smooth bore pistol

Just curiouse how these get around NFA's "Any Other Weapon" definition.

For the purpose of this chapter—
(a) Firearm
...
The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.
...
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
...

 

[parmamoon]

Thanks wdlsguy

Thats exactly the loophole I was looking for!





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