Bone busting formula

[Hog huntin Harry]

What is best at breaking bone on thick skinned game ? Velocity or weight ?

For example, what would do a better job at close range, a 45-70 405 grain bullet at 1300 fps or a 150 grain 30-06 at 2900 fps ?

 

[NMachine]

Oh Crap....another SD debate arises!

 

[CraigC]

Definitely weight. Big critters demand tough, heavy bullets. Light bullets just don't have the momentum and work better on lighter game.

 

[horsemen61]

Definitely weight. Big critters demand tough, heavy bullets. Light bullets just don't have the momentum and work better on lighter game.

When it comes to killing Large Game I trust
@CraigC’s opinion completely I’ve seen some of what he has harvested with (handguns*) no less!


*not saying handguns are better or worse than long arms just stating that it is more difficult imho to use a handgun instead of a rifle

 

[H&Hhunter]

The magic number on heavy thick skinned African is a 500 gr bullet at at MV of about 2150 FPS. That in a good solid bullet is what the African hunters used as a recipe for any and all game. That combo will give full penetration on the largest critters with the thickest and most dense bones.

Of course there is lots of stuff that works on either side of that “magic” combo given good bullets and proper bullet weight. Those numbers have always provided excellent results for me.

 

[sparkyv]

Those are some big boys, H&Hhunter.

 

[jmorris]

I have busted some pretty big bovine femurs with a regular 147gn minor 9mm load.

I have killed many large animals by just getting past one side of the skull though.

I imagine I have broken more bones with a 12ga using 7 1/2 & 8 though as I have always enjoyed dove hunting and it doesn't take much. Lots of times there is not even a single piece of shot in the breast and they still went down.

I imagine my API stuff pushing a 647gn bullet around 2750 fps would do some damage. While regular AP pokes holes through 1" plate steel, the API makes more of a mess on the first 1/4 of the surface before it punches the penetrator on through.
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[MaxP]

For busting bones, bullet construction is the most vital factor especially with high impact velocities. Having said that, monolithic solids work well and remain intact.

 

[WestKentucky]

Biggest thing is a hard bullet. Soft bullets deform and fail as opposed to hard bullets hitting and shattering. Even still, a soft bullet will often break a bone, but that may be the extent of the story whereas a hard bullet with momentum may keep going.

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

Would a Hornady GMX 165 grain 308 penatrate farther than a Remington core-lokt 180 grain 308 ?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Would a Hornady GMX 165 grain 308 penatrate farther than a Remington core-lokt 180 grain 308 ?

That depends on multiple variables. But given the same medium I would expect them to be fairly similar. I think the GMX is going to do better against heavy bone overall.

The reason they will be similar is because the 165 gr .308 round and the 180 Gr .30-06 round are pretty close in velocity.

I find cup and core bullets in a 180 gr .30-06 offering to be very effective and deep penetrating due to their reality “slow” MV. So what you are lacking in S.D. in the 165 Gr GMX you are making up for with bullet construction. What you are lacking in bullet construction you are making up for in a more sedate MV in the 06.

Now compare apples to apples in either the .308 or the 06 and I give the GMX the win for penetration every time. IE in an 06 a 180 gr GMX beats the cup and core and in a .308 the 165 Gr GMX beats the cup and core.

Overall, however there isn’t enough difference regarding your question to make a bit of difference on game animals in hunting conditions. It’s inconsequential.

 

[MaxP]

Since I hunt exclusively with handguns, it's a balancing act as far as the right projectile for the job is concerned. Since the velocity potential is low compared to most rifles, we need to maximize the efficiency of the projectile. This doesn't mean necessarily the heaviest bullet. With a similarly long monolithic solid you lose weight, but will typically gain in penetration because the integrity and shape of the bullet remains constant and correct. Also, with the mono solid, more speed equals more penetration. I've killed these particular bovines with monolithic and/or hybrid solids (I consider the Kodiak Punch bullet a hybrid as it is a monolithic solid with a lead insert to five it more weight.

CEB 340 grain solids in .480 Ruger (Argentina).


Kodiak Punch bullets in .500 JRH (Texas).




Kodiak Punch bullets in .500 JRH (South Africa).

 

[Loyalist Dave]

What is best at breaking bone on thick skinned game ? Velocity or weight ?

Depends on the game as others have written...
Frederick Selous was the quintessential, large dangerous game hunter of his day. He used everything from a 4-Bore rifle (1700 grain 1.00 caliber round ball, lead) that launched it's bullet say 1500 fps, to a .461 Gibbs (500 grains at 1300 fps lead bullet), but what he said he really preferred after all his years in Africa as his favorite load was a .450 Nitro Express...465 grain round nosed bullet doing 2100 fps.

So that answers the basic weight to velocity question...the guy liked 25% of the weight of his 4-bore rifles, doing about 25% more speed.....but that's very very simplistic. Probably too simple for this day and age.....

Because this is the 21st century, and you have all sorts of lovely bullet designs which will increase the diameter of the bullet at impact and thus increase the minimum damage while holding together, tailor the penetration to the game which you are harvesting, and you can get more velocity if you need that, too.

You can balance effective range (for you and the terrain) to recoil, to bullet weight and performance, and price.

Does a hog, elk, or moose know the difference when it's hit with a well placed shot if you used a .416 Lott, a .45-70, a .35 Whelen, a .338 Lapua, or a .30-06 ....all other factors being equal??

LD

 

[entropy]

The answer is always accuracy and anatomical knowledge. We can debate flight and terminal ballistics all we want, but it has to get to the right place first. Until these are in place, debating terminal bullet performance is pointless. Then it is a relatively simple matter of matching desired terminal ballistics to the game within the caliber.

H&H hunter and Max P. have considerable experience and knowledge on this subject, HHH. I'd listen to what they have to say.

Hogs are not nearly as formidable as the things they have taken.

 

[MaxP]

The answer is always accuracy and anatomical knowledge. We can debate flight and terminal ballistics all we want, but it has to get to the right place first. Until these are in place, debating terminal bullet performance is pointless. Then it is a relatively simple matter of matching desired terminal ballistics to the game within the caliber.

H&H hunter and Max P. have considerable experience and knowledge on this subject, HHH. I'd listen to what they have to say.

Hogs are not nearly as formidable as the things they have taken.

In order to debate this we have to assume good shot placement or the discussion is moot. You are right however, if you can’t hit what you’re aiming at, there’s no point to the discussion.

 

[25-20 WCF]

But even perfect shot placement will fail if the bullet doesn’t penetrate deeply enough and damage sufficient soft tissue to kill, or break bone to anchor the thick-skinned animal. So in answering the OP’s question, accuracy is pointless without the right bullet and velocity. He’s not talking about hogs or elk here....


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[entropy]

But even perfect shot placement will fail if the bullet doesn’t penetrate deeply enough and damage sufficient soft tissue to kill, or break bone to anchor the thick-skinned animal. So in answering the OP’s question, accuracy is pointless without the right bullet and velocity. He’s not talking about hogs or elk here....


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<Ed McMahon voice> You are correct, Sir!</Ed McMahon voice>

V-Max would be a poor choice for elephant, even if they made it in .458.

From his username and past threads, I assumed he was talking about hogs; thick skinned can mean many things.

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

I did mean hogs, but I didn't want to start a hog thread, I figured I'd get straighter answers if I was somewhat vague.

 

[horsey300]

But even perfect shot placement will fail if the bullet doesn’t penetrate deeply enough and damage sufficient soft tissue to kill, or break bone to anchor the thick-skinned animal. So in answering the OP’s question, accuracy is pointless without the right bullet and velocity. He’s not talking about hogs or elk here....


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I believe shot placement should be chosen based on the gear at hand, I'll place a light skinned bullet in the ribs and something tougher through the shoulders, vmax to the brain accubond to the bones (hogs) but if I can't hit the brain, skip the vmax.