Book Reports, what have you learned about guns?

[Remington1911]

I know this place hates non gun related topics, so I am going to try to focus this on the gun related.

I am currently researching on american indian wars, and I have learned a few things about the trapdoor springfield during my readings.

On average the american male came in at 3rd tallest in the 1880's at 5'7", hauling around a rifle weighing about 7lbs across kansas (sometimes 40 miles per day) rain sleet or snow, along with all the other stuff....just wow. Learning that on the western forts that getting three, as in 3 practice rounds per year was something. This gives me the idea on just why the wars lasted as long as they did, indians dug lead out of everything, from trees to the dead, and made arrow heads from discarded tins.

I just can't imagine having to haul that heavy rifle all over Texas, trying to shoot someone going 35mph easy while hanging under the horses neck with three rounds of practice at best.

How shocking it was for the indians to come across the trapdoor when they had tactics based around muzzle loaders. One of the reasons of the walker colt, it was called a horse pistol as it was easy to hit the horse of an Apache or Comanche not as easy to hit the man.

The development of the weapons and the following tactics is interesting.

What have you learned?

 

[theotherwaldo]

Most of our military firearms up to the end of the First World War were selected primarily for their ability to kill horses.
Cavalry was the terror of the battlefield - until the machine gun... .

 

[Remington1911]

Most of our military firearms up to the end of the First World War were selected primarily for their ability to kill horses.
Cavalry was the terror of the battlefield - until the machine gun... .

They sure got used to kill horses. Imagine if you will sitting at a very famous canyon in Texas with todays conservative estimates of 1,800 ponies and getting an order to kill them all. Some other sources suggest there was well over 2500 horses. According to troopers the horses started to panic as well....what a mess. I read stories that the bones stayed there for years till fertilizer people came in and collected them all.

There is also the well known issues with the smaller handguns after the spanish american war in the philippines. We all know the story about that being the reason for going back to something starting with a .4

Cavalry really was an evolving arm, that really started changing with breach loading rifles. Going from one shot per minute with a muzzle loader to 10 per minute on the high side is a huge jump. Now thinking cavalry is really not much good in anything that comes close to being called woods, you are thinking of crossing large open areas, generally out of range of small arms. This might or might not be out of range of the eye.

We had squares that worked very well against the horse....VERY well, a square was also a real bad idea with artillery.....all one counters the other.

But back to your point, if you think of a normal solider that lived through the civil war, and was good and could get 2-3 shots per minute off, just think of the ability to fire so fast with a breach loader. And back to another point all that had to be hauled in by something with a foot. The reason we had magazine cutoffs in WWI at the start, don't waste ammo.

Eh I rambled again, but if I was to call the end of the cav I would say breach or repeating rifles.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Eh I rambled again, but if I was to call the end of the cav I would say breach or repeating rifles.

True, but not in the minds of the generals.
Generals always want to fight the next war in the ways that they fought the previous war... .

 

[Remington1911]

True, but not in the minds of the generals.
Generals always want to fight the next war in the ways that they fought the previous war... .

VERY true, I could not agree more.

I did a little reading on the Boer war, and I think it would be safe to say the british came away from that conflict and put the lessons learned into practice.

The boer war by martin bossenboek is the book I am going to reference.

The british army had the same thoughts to "target practice" as the americans did, it slowly started to change in the victorian age that you know, if your guys actually can hit the other guys it would really be a help in the long run. So they got more and more into shooting disipline, and rewarding those that did well with it. That guy from canada that does all the youtube videos does a good job on talking about the different training and qualify standards in the "british" army in that time frame. It did however swing a bit too far to the point in early WWI they really thought of the machine gun as an artillery extension, and if you wanted accurate volume of fire....well we all know the mad minute.

That Boer war book I talked about is another one I can reccomend, covering both the british side as well as the "dutch". It does go into pretty good detail on the different rifles used by the dutch farmers, as well as the larger arms. I have an 1895 7mm mauser that is from that time frame, likely redirected to chile during that conflict, the step up to that from a martini is like the step up from the muzzle loader to the breach loader.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I picked up one of those 1895 Chilean Mauser short rifles, complete with blancoed sling and nickel-plated bayonet.
Nice gun, excellent shooter.
I've gathered a dozen or so examples of the issue rifles from between 1873 and 1900, mostly Mausers, and the little Chilean is my favorite.

 

[Archie]

I cannot begin to relate all I have learned about guns from books. I know it is substantial. Guys like "Jelly" Bryce. Stuff like the greatest elephant hunter of all time was also a fighter pilot 'Ace'.

Just for the record, the 7x57mm Mauser is one of my favorites, too.

 

[Remington1911]

As we are on the 7mm, I found it interesting in book after book them talking about how out ranged the british are, and the marksmanship of the dutch farmers, hitting british out to over 1000 meters was something common. I seem to remember about british mis marked sights as well making their life hard. The bright red uniforms just made a fantastic and easy to see thing to shoot at, and I think that was the last time for the classic red uniform.

I found it very interesting on how the kommando units are setup (dutch armies I guess I will say), very few professional soldiers, and very few with uniforms. Only the artillery was a "real" army unit. All the rest was basically a militia. And that group of farmers held off the largest empire in the world with a rag tag set of arms. I don't want to get into current events, but it is interesting the same kind of things happen today and small arms in the hands of a skilled population are showing their value yet again.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yeah, my Lee Metfords and early Lee Enfields are completely out-classed by any of my 7mm Mausers, even the Spanish ones, when it comes to accuracy at long range. Of course, the Lees can cycle faster and have more magazine capacity, but that only mattered at the time when the British squares were marching around matching volleys with opposing squares... .

 

[jdsingleshot]

I like Parker Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. Especially the chapter on the strength of military actions. I'm not a great fan of his "Improved" cartridges, but he sure proved his points.

 

[eyeshot]

Squares(?)

 

[Jim Watson]

hauling around a rifle weighing about 7lbs across kansas

Mighty few serious rifles of the day weighed as little as 7 pounds. A Trapdoor Carbine was not a lot over 7 lbs, but the rifle is nearly 9. My Winchester Single Shot weighs nearly 10 lbs and my Browning "High Wall" over 11.

My uncorrected vision would not let me get much good out of a rifle, a fowling piece or shotgun would be a lot handier and hit anything I could see with ball or shot.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Infantry square.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/UnionInfantryHollowSquare.jpg

 

[eyeshot]

Infantry square.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/UnionInfantryHollowSquare.jpg

I searched and it seemed to be related to artillery grids. Thanks, for the clarification.

 

[Remington1911]

Mighty few serious rifles of the day weighed as little as 7 pounds. A Trapdoor Carbine was not a lot over 7 lbs, but the rifle is nearly 9. My Winchester Single Shot weighs nearly 10 lbs and my Browning "High Wall" over 11.

My uncorrected vision would not let me get much good out of a rifle, a fowling piece or shotgun would be a lot handier and hit anything I could see with ball or shot.

Makes them doing it even more amazing.

 

[MedWheeler]

That "guns" is spelled with an "s" at the end.

 

[230RN]

My recollection is that the Mosin-Nagant, with its long bayonet, was designed with the idea in mind that it could be used as a pike for killing horses. I was amazed at how long mine was and found out that unless in transport, the bayonet was to be left in place at all times. I figured it would be possible to goose hunt with mine by just poking it in the air with the bayonet attached as the geese flew by. (As a last, albeit illegal, resort. )



Book-wise, I think Hatcher's Notebook was the most informative firearms book I ever read. I believe over 90% of the firearms questions we still see today, even on THR, can be answered in that book. One of its beauties is that you can open it to any page and start reading it right from there. It is dated and does not cover modern stuff like ARs and modern whizbang sighting systems, but let's face it, the result of bullets from the sky has not changed, and a lot of information on the net is from the Notebook anyway, but uncredited.

I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to lay a C-Note on the table that most, if not all, of the trajectory and ballistic "aps" are based on the "Exterior Ballistics" Ingall's Tables in that book. Am I faded?

Terry, 230RN

 

[Remington1911]

My recollection is that the Mosin-Nagant, with its long bayonet, was designed with the idea in mind that it could be used as a pike for killing horses. I was amazed at how long mine was and found out that unless in transport, the bayonet was to be left in place at all times. I figured it would be possible to goose hunt with mine by just poking it in the air with the bayonet attached as the geese flew by. (As a last, albeit illegal, resort. )

View attachment 1076354

Book-wise, I think Hatcher's Notebook was the most informative firearms book I ever read. I believe over 90% of the firearms questions we still see today, even on THR, can be answered in that book. One of its beauties is that you can open it to any page and start reading it right from there. It is dated and does not cover modern stuff like ARs and modern whizbang sighting systems, but let's face it, the result of bullets from the sky has not changed, and a lot of information on the net is from the Notebook anyway, but uncredited.

I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to lay a C-Note on the table that most, if not all, of the trajectory and ballistic "aps" are based on the "Exterior Ballistics" Ingall's Tables in that book. Am I faded?

Terry, 230RN

Having not measured I would say a type 99 with the bayonet is going to give it a run for its money, I have both it would be easy to do I would bet the 99 is coming in over 5' easy.

I think we talked about the 7mm mauser here as well. History of the mauser rifle in chile is fantastic if you have one of those flavors. It touches lightly on other countries that used it, but naturally it is focused on Chile.

I was able to find out the name of the ship that took my rifle to Chile, it has listed this ship took sn# x-y and that ship took a-b.....I found that very cool.

For me these books I will call a reference book, (I) just can't read them all and my head is wired for these silly little details, I also have the Great remington 8, covers the 8 and 81. It falls into the same group, if you need that one spec of info it is the, as in THE source. But to read it I just can't.

To drift yet again I have a bunch of books that fall into this area, If you are interested in Russian hardware and the most "famous" tank of all check out T-34 Mythical weapon. This one is not a cheapie, coming in at ~$200, but again I would say it is THE book on the T34. The book was originally Polish, the first english translations did not translate any of the photos....you do kinda need that. So if you find one that is under $100 before you snag it thinking you are getting a deal look for english in the photos. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[twarr1]

Book-wise, I think Hatcher's Notebook was the most informative firearms book I ever read. I believe over 90% of the firearms questions we still see today, even on THR, can be answered in that book.

Agreed! Excellent resource.

 

[Bandit67]

I think I read somewhere that over 8 million horses were killed in WWI.

 

[Remington1911]

I think I read somewhere that over 8 million horses were killed in WWI.

I could see that number, thinking on how motor transport was back then, I can see it easy.

I have read in three different books on dealing with the plains indians that the US army finally figured out horses are a big key in.....dealing I guess I will say....with the indian issue. Before the 1870's they would capture the indian ponies and try (key word try) to bring them back for sale. Only issue is the indians got real good at getting them back, and usually US cav horses as well. So they started killing them, by the thousands. To our 20th century ears this is harsh, but it was what it was.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Writing my first book on sharpshooters/sharpshooting had me learn a lot about the evolution of guns and of bullets. The advent of the minie ball resulted in marksmanship schools in Europe and England followed by America on how to take advantage of the longer range guns. With practice, an average man could rest his rifle and hit a sandbag at 500 yards. The minie ball's reign was short though as it was superceded by the metallic cartridge rifle that saw some use in the Henry and Spencer in the American Civil War. Smokeless was the next great leap forward and calibers began to shrink. Rifle barrels though remained long (29-30") because the need for the rifle to be used as a pike to repel cavalry was not unreal.

BTW, Henry Heth who became a Confederate general was among the first American to put into practice the marksmanship instruction taught at the Hythe. He learned it from a two page newspaper article (reproduced in one of my books) sent to him by his friend, Hancock. Heth wrote it down and adopted things from the British marksmanship manual and submitted it to the War Department. It was later "stolen" and republished during the war by another officer. The same methodology was used by Confederate Patrick Cleburne (who had once been a corporal in the British Army) to instruct his division in marksmanship.

 

[4v50 Gary]

As we are on the 7mm, I found it interesting in book after book them talking about how out ranged the british are, and the marksmanship of the dutch farmers, hitting british out to over 1000 meters was something common. I seem to remember about british mis marked sights as well making their life hard. The bright red uniforms just made a fantastic and easy to see thing to shoot at, and I think that was the last time for the classic red uniform.

I found it very interesting on how the kommando units are setup (dutch armies I guess I will say), very few professional soldiers, and very few with uniforms. Only the artillery was a "real" army unit. All the rest was basically a militia. And that group of farmers held off the largest empire in the world with a rag tag set of arms. I don't want to get into current events, but it is interesting the same kind of things happen today and small arms in the hands of a skilled population are showing their value yet again.

Prewar the Boers had some long range rifle ranges. To assist them in battle, they painted rocks at certain distances to make distance estimation not so difficult. Spot the rock, know the distance of that rock, adjust the sight and hold for the soldier/target. By the time of the Boer War, the British had gone over to khaki.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The reason we had magazine cutoffs in WWI at the start, don't waste ammo.

In WW II, one American sniper loved the magazine cut-off. He carried his ammo in Garand clips and load with six (five in magazine with one in chamber aand two held between the fingers of the left hand). Magazine cut-off was engaged. After the first shot, he'd pop one in from the left hand to reload. He'd do it again with the second bullet too. After that was fired, he disengaged the magazine cut-off and still had five rounds. He was the only American sniper of the era (that I found to do this practice).

 

[Remington1911]

Prewar the Boers had some long range rifle ranges. To assist them in battle, they painted rocks at certain distances to make distance estimation not so difficult. Spot the rock, know the distance of that rock, adjust the sight and hold for the soldier/target. By the time of the Boer War, the British had gone over to khaki.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Red_coat_(British_army)