BP question

Status
Not open for further replies.
... when you see something like 3Fg the little g means that the granules are coated with graphite. This helps to keep them from breaking down into smaller bits, keeping "dust" down, and making them a teeny bit more resistant to moisture...
Interesting. I seem to remember reading the the "little g" stood for "glazed".
Once the black powder cake was crushed and granuals sorted, the grains were heated until sulphur at the grain surface was melted and formed a very light coating as it cooled. Purpose is to achieve results as you state above.
I haven't researched black powder factoids in 40+ years, so I don't remember where I got that. ChemE lecture, maybe. With all the "crushing" and "heating", it would explain why BP factories tend to blow up.
 
I am confused about what you are trying to accomplish.

Start with the premise that blackpowder is always loaded by volumes, not actual mass or weight. Blackpowder is measured with scoops, brass nozzles on flasks, etc. So that means "an equivalent charge" of a different sized powder would simply be the amount of that powder that would fill the measure. Take a black powder cartridge for example: Let's say a .38 Special brass case contains 1 cc (volume) of 2F powder under a particular bullet, and that amount provides sufficient volume to follow the rule about not allowing an air gap between powder and the base of the bullet. The same volume of 3F powder will have a bit more mass, due to less gaps between those smaller powder grains, but could still be called "an equivalent charge" to the 2F powder because it satisfies the golden rule about eliminating the air gap between powder and bullet.

If you are trying to produce the same muzzle velocity with 3F that you got with the 2F powder, then you would obviously need a smaller volume of 3F in the case, and be faced with using some kind of filler between the powder and the bullet. If this is what you are trying to accomplish, then weigh the 2F powder charge precisely on a scale, then use the same actual weight of 3F to get the same mass of powder. (Assuming here that the same actual "mass/weight" of powder will generate the same pressure curve during burning.)

This second case seems like a lot of bother to me, so that's why I asked what you are trying to accomplish, and perhaps what firearm you will be using? One of the joys of black powder is being able to throw volumes rather than measuring actual weights. Another joy is not having to worry about 1/10 grain differences in powder charges! :thumbdown:

So you probably already knew all of this, but I'm just trying to explain why I'm confused!
I load by weight more accurate that said I ding 10% rule works in my guns 2 f go up 10% compared to 3 f 10% down going 2 to 2 f
 
BP can be loaded by both volume and weight.

In one instance, the shooter uses a commercial volume measure w/ graduated markings that correspond to an average weight of BP in it's various granulations. (It's never "right on," it's just a repeatable volume -- whatever that weight turns out to be.)

In another, the shooter actually weighs the charge -- also repeatable and an actual weight.

Combining the two, the shooter finds an actual weight/brand that shoots best, then cuts a 45-70 or 38-55 case* to volumetrically produce that same actual weight in that granulation (& brand) -- and calls it a day. (Ain't this fun? :) )



It ain't rocket science, guys.
And it isn't always this . . or always that.
Just find the right weight/volume/granulation/brand (you choose/experiment/find out) that works for your particular weapon, and use it repeatably.
 
Last edited:
I have never understood the “load by volume” logic. When I preload plastic cylinders for use in the field, I weigh the charges.
The load by volume approach works well enough if I use the same powder all the time.
If I change powder or granulation, I my have to recalibrate for optimal results. Why? Because BP is not the same from one manufacturer to another. The big difference is density. Density affects the actual weight of a particular volume. Swiss powders have a reputation for being dense. Other powders are “fluffier”. The difference can be substantial....sometimes 10-20%.
 
The idea that 4F is only for the flashpan is absolutely false. Historically 4F was certainly used in the Hazard’s paper cartridges used during the Civil War. Not only was it 4F powder but it was also found to be as energetic as Swiss powder. Then consider that those .44 cal cartridges were loaded with 36 grns pushing a 211 grn conical.

Also a whole bunch of metallic cartridges from the late 1800’s were disassembled by a museum curator for display and he found a lot of large caliber (and small) cartridges were loaded with both 4F as well as finer powders.

Of course I’d never suggest anyone defy the manufacturer’s warnings, though I would if Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 weren’t available. As these are, and are plenty powerful, I see no need.

Also “grains” are absolutely weight and not volume.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm
 
Last edited:
Here's what I've found through experience, 4f being a fine granulation tends to act more like a fuse in the pan of a flinter. Coarser powder works better as a primer because of the different facets of the individual grains and the extra air gaps between grains. I use as small a primer charge as I can get away with, barely covering the bottom of the pan maybe 1 granule deep. So far this is what I find works best for me. On a side note, 777 is a very fine granulated powder, I have trouble with it clogging up the cutoff gate in my various powder flasks.
 
I have never understood the “load by volume” logic.

I suspect it started because it was difficult to carry a scale while hunting or dodging balls coming at you from the opposing army. I’ve heard that one of the early powder measures was the palm of your hand; hold the ball in your palm and pour powder over it. When the mound of powder covers the ball, you’ve “measured” the proper volume. Never tried it myself but sounds like it would work in the field.
 
4f being a fine granulation tends to act more like a fuse in the pan of a flinter.
No fuse-effect involved (unless one has gotten powder actually into the vent hole in error)
The objective is immediate flash ignition of the entire surface of the pan charge -- even with the bottom of the vent -- and the flame front itself blowing through the hole.
Almost instantaneous when done correctly
 
I suspect it started because it was difficult to carry a scale while hunting or dodging balls coming at you from the opposing army. I’ve heard that one of the early powder measures was the palm of your hand; hold the ball in your palm and pour powder over it. When the mound of powder covers the ball, you’ve “measured” the proper volume. Never tried it myself but sounds like it would work in the field.
I’ve heard that method for years - decades - but I have never really seen a full explanation.
Do you hold the palm flat, slightly cupped, or with the fingers almost touching the heel of your hand? Is your hand boney or fleshy? It is going to make a difference. It stands to reason that accurate scales for weighing x amount of powder was scarce in the 18th, 19th, and earlier centuries so some method beyond guessing was needed. While Cline’s book mentions the palm of hand method, it also mentions one that would be repeatable to an accurate degree to make a volume measure both by the gun maker and by the owner if the original measure was lost.
Two molds full.
Back in the days of no standard calibers this would have been an easy universal rule of thumb. For the most part, precision shooting wasn’t a concern. All that was needed was minute of deer or minute of enemy.
Of course, today there are those who would suggest four or five molds full.
 
I suspect it started because it was difficult to carry a scale while hunting or dodging balls coming at you from the opposing army. I’ve heard that one of the early powder measures was the palm of your hand; hold the ball in your palm and pour powder over it. When the mound of powder covers the ball, you’ve “measured” the proper volume. Never tried it myself but sounds like it would work in the field.
I went to a shoot at a revolutionary fort when I was in my teens. That's what the instructor said was done back in those days.
 
I have seen very few authenticated sets of horns. They exist, no question, but as you pointed out mostly among the wealthy. Same thing for the various sporting powders. Quite common in England and Europe, not so much in the Ohio frontier.

Kevin
While relatively rare, there were shooting matches in America as far back as the 1700's and I have seen a few Horns/flasks for priming powder in Museums here in America, although the flasks and guns were of European make and tricked out match shooters. These were heirlooms passed down from wealthy land owners of the continental Colonies.
 
I don't know why discussions like this come up with EVERY POSSIBLE COMBINATION all claimed to be OK to do by SOMEONE. Why even ask it? When you get ready to shoot, you are going to use what ever is in the can you HAVE any way and you know what? It is all gonna be ok.
 
4F (Swiss #1) is a perfectly good propellant charge for pistol. The only trouble I've had is that it will filter out of nipple holes and touchholes. I normally reserve it for flintlock pistols, and insert the touchhole pick before loading. Shot development is much faster. Prime with Swiss Null B, a thin layer of it.

My go-to for the percussion guns is 3Fg. Swiss, normally, although OE is as good.
 
So if my normal load of 20 grains of 3f, then 18 grs of 4f or 22 grs of 2f will work about the same?

It would depend on the actual characteristics of the barrel and powder.
There's a rule of thumb and then there's actually testing the performance.
Some granulations simply won't duplicate another, but it's always worth a try and then make additional adjustments as needed.
 
Howdy

I have not shot muzzle loaders in years, but I load cartridges with Black Powder all the time.

45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40. 45-70 every once in a while too. Oh yeah, 12 gauge shotgun too.

Generally speaking, you will achieve between 60 fps to 100 fps more velocity by substituting FFFg for FFg with these cartridges, all other things being equal.

Years ago I used to keep both FFFg and FFg in stock, FFFg for all those cartridges under 45 caliber and under, FFg for 12 Gauge.

To make things simpler I only use FFg these days. It is not a big deal.

I usually use Schuetzen because it is not as dirty as Goex and not as expensive as Swiss.

Although I usually load by volume, I keep track of the grain weights of my favorite charges just for reference. As previously noted, not all brands of Black Powder weighs the same, and not all Black Powder brands have the same energy. My standard charges are based on the dippers that come with the Lee Dipper set, but I mostly use a Lyman Black Powder measure that I set up for the standard charges shown in this chart. As you can see, the different brands weigh a slightly different amount. It does not matter at all for the shooting I do. This chart is pretty old, Elephant brand is not available any more.

BlackPowderWeights_zps5bea048d.jpg



gasmandave:

You are over thinking this.

Just get yourself one of these:

measure.jpg




Pull out the sliding bar and set the charge at what you want.

See what works best.

I don't know what you are shooting, but be sure to ram the projectile down all the way onto the powder charge so there is no airspace left between the powder and the projectile.

That's all there is to it.
 
Driftwood I am going to ask a stupid question. What if the round ball or whatever was Not tight against the wad or powder charge? Say out an 1/2 inch or so or just not tight. Will the powder just burn and create some pressure and push the ball out of the barrel or will it explode and cause damage to the gun. I though it was controlled pressure that did the work?
When I was a kid, a long, long time ago I was a farm kid and set off an explosion (black powder bomb) in our dump.... dad never asked what happened?

I guess God was watching over me, I did a lot of stupid things as a kid.
 
If the projectile is not seated tightly over the powder charge there is the possibility of bulging the barrel at the gap between the powder and projectile. You could also burst the barrel if using a heavy charge of powder. It would depend on the strength of the barrel. Either way, it is not a good thing to do. That is one of the reasons a patch was used on the ball to help hold it against the powder, and to provide a way to transfer the rifiling to the ball upon ignition.
 
Driftwood I am going to ask a stupid question. What if the round ball or whatever was Not tight against the wad or powder charge? Say out an 1/2 inch or so or just not tight. Will the powder just burn and create some pressure and push the ball out of the barrel or will it explode and cause damage to the gun. I though it was controlled pressure that did the work?

At risk of offending some on another thread dealing with this question, this is my understanding.

If there is air between a Black Powder charge and a projectile, when the powder burns the expanding combustion gasses will build pressure. But the projectile will behave as a momentary barrel obstruction and the air between the powder and the projectile will become highly compressed. This highly compressed air can then exert pressure against the barrel, or chamber, which ever is the case, deforming the metal and causing a ring to form in the barrel (or chamber). If the material strength of the metal is strong enough, it will withstand the pressure incursion, leaving a ring in the barrel as testimony to the over pressure situation. If not, the barrel may burst.

If however, the projectile is firmly seated against the powder, the projectile will not behave as a barrel obstruction. Instead the projectile will begin moving as soon as the expanding combustion gasses reach it and all will be well.

That is my understanding anyway.

As I said earlier, I have not shot a muzzle loader in a long time, but with my Black Powder cartridges I always compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. 45-70 is a different story, I use a compression die to compress the powder before seating a bullet against it. Normally I just allow the base of the bullet to compress the powder slightly as the bullet is seated.
 
I've always been taught; even as far back as the 60's, to always seat against the powder, and have followed that advice religiously, don't tempt fate. A tiny gap may be forgiven, but at what cost and the chance of explosive results is just not worth it. My 1st kit pistol in 1966, had in bold writing "ALWAYS SEAT PROJECTILE AGAINST POWDER" later guns had manuals that expounded on the severe dangers of not seating the bullet on the powder.
 
I am not about to test this, but you'd think with a patched ball just ahead of the gap the pressure would take the path of least resistance and move the ball down the barrel. The steel in both my black powder guns .50 Cal, is at .200 inch thick surrounding the ball, measured just now. Pistol .200, rifle .230 inches.

So were the bulged and burst barrels modern steel or from the Civil war days?
 
Ac
I am not about to test this, but you'd think with a patched ball just ahead of the gap the pressure would take the path of least resistance and move the ball down the barrel. The steel in both my black powder guns .50 Cal, is at .200 inch thick surrounding the ball, measured just now. Pistol .200, rifle .230 inches.

So were the bulged and burst barrels modern steel or from the Civil war days?
Actually, why take the chance regardless the metal and or thickness. Sticking with the configuration that is safe to shoot is the healthiest configuration for your gun.
 
Ac

Actually, why take the chance regardless the metal and or thickness. Sticking with the configuration that is safe to shoot is the healthiest configuration for your gun.

My first line above was "I am not about to test this" but it seems there are a Lot of BP myths like not using 4F powder and all, I am wondering if anyone here has seen this happen with a modern gun?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top