Breaking the Rules in 25 ACP

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hdwhit

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Skulking around some rural gun shops over Columbus Day, I scored a box of Hornady 35 grain XTP bullet in .251 diameter (for use 25 ACP).

Normally, when I develop a load, I will load ten rounds at the Starting load, followed by ten rounds at each increment between the Starting load and Maximum Load. At the range, I would fire five of these cartridges through the chronograph to see the velocity and a separate group of five shots fired for accuracy. That way, as I work my way up the ladder, I see when velocity is no longer materially increasing as with the powder charge as well as being able to monitor accuracy and pressure signs.

But, there are several powders suitable for 25 ACP and the spread between Starting and Maxmum loads run 0.3 to 0.4 grains. Going up in 0.1 grain increments, I could easily consume all of my brass and bullets before I had a developed load.

So, to narrow down my choices, I plan to cut down the number of cartridges on each rung of the ladder from ten to three and fire all three through the chronograph with an emphasis on shot placement to try and cover both measures at the same time.

I would also like to minimize the number of powders I need to try. I currently have Hi-Skor 700X, Red Dot, Bullseye and HP-38. Since I'm only going to use about 200 grains of powder, I would like to stick with one I already use rather than buying a pound of new-to-me powder. My pistol has a 2 inch barrel and the stiker spring is weak so the only primers I've found that will work are Remington 1&1/2. Any suggestions on which order I should try the powders to maximize my chances of getting something acceptable the first time?
 
When you shoot a 25 acp through a chronograph does the screen just display LOL ?

Seriously though I don't have a 25 acp but 700X, Red Dot, and Bullseye are all very similar so I think all would all have an equaly good chance of working well. I would just pick whichever one of those you can find the best load data for and have the easiest time metering at those tiny charge weights. I don't think hp38 would be a particularly good fit but I could be wrong on that.
 
I find Bullseye works for me. It meters very well and since there is not a lot of tolerance, you should weigh each load. I use RN FMJ. Whatever you decide to use, stick with the easy to meter powders. Not a lot of room for error.
 
When you shoot a 25 acp through a chronograph does the screen just display LOL ?

That's good. :D

I went through a load development with 25 ACP in the early 1990's using 35 grain bullets. Unfortunately, I did it when I was in the early stages of the neurological condition that would handicap me for two decades and the records of that load - if they were ever kept - were lost. I didn't have HP-38 at the time, so it had to have been 700X, Red Dot or Bullseye. I do remember the data in the Hornady supplied said I should be able to nudge 1,000 fps, but I also remember being disappointed that I never got close to that.
 
larryh1108 wrote:
...you should weigh each load.

Thank you for the reminder.

I load on a single stage press and normally throw each charge light and trickle up to the desired weight. Since we're talking about loads that are a fraction over one grain, I figured I would just fill the reservoir on the trickler and trickle the the charge up to weight without using a measure at all since I'm only going to be loading a dozen or so at a time to start with.
 
I've only used red dot one time but I think of those three Bullseye would be the easiest to measure out. I think just trickling it is a good plan. I have a vibrashine power trickler that would be perfect for that.
 
Not on your list, and I don't load .25 but AA#2 meters much better than HP38 or Bullseye. (for me at least) Works great for .380 size charges which of course are large compared to .25 size charges.:eek:
I would think in that small a charge weight with Red Dot or 700x you would be grabbing flakes with the tweezers to get it right.
Lyman shows AA#2 1.6 to 1.8 gr. Would need to check to see if I could throw charges that small accurate enough with AA#2 but if anything will AA#2 is probably your best bet.(as far as getting thrown charges and not having to trickle)
If your interested let me know and I can throw some and weigh them. (Lee Autodrum and Hornady LNL measure available to try on)
VMD of AA#2 about .102 about the same as Bullseye, a little less dense than HP38.
 
Dudedog wrote:
I would think in that small a charge weight with Red Dot or 700x you would be grabbing flakes with the tweezers...

I think you're very close to reality.

I think I'll probably be loading maybe ten or twelve rounds at a time. I figured that rather than mess with a powder measure (RCBS Uniflow), I would just fill the hopper of the powder trickler and trickle each load into the pan on the scale.
 
someguy2800 wrote:
...I have a vibrashine power trickler...

Never heard of that before. From the name I can guess what it might be. I'll google it. I have a cheap plastic Hornady trickler, but it does the job. Should have spent the extra money to get the RCBS one, but I was looking at price over quality.
 
Ok, I just had to go find out:),
never tried throwing a charge that small.

Lee Auto Drum, Lee 3 hole turret, 9mm case-powder drop assembly, not rotating turret
Scale Gem 20 (will change if you breath on it)
AA#2
Charge # Weight
1 1.72 * low
2 1.74
3 1.72
4 1.76
5 1.78 *high
6 1.74
7 1.76
8 1.74
9 1.74
10 1.74

Avg 1.744 gr
ES 0.06
SD 0.01837873

Didn't fiddle with trying to get 1.7 exactly just get close to the middle to get an idea and went from there.
AA#2 sure meters well:D
(ok very small sample, but gives you an idea)
Note: No special care dropping charges, just normal try to be smooth, "cheap" Lee equipment tested.
 
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I had good results with the XTP using 231 (HP-38?).
Red Dot also gave good accuracy in my TPH, but I settled on the 231.
I was using 1.7 grs with no loss of primer pockets thru 3 firings, but that was in my gun.

I made a scoop for charging cases, but who knew the bullet would become a collectors item.
Lucky I still have 1500 50gr. FMJs from before SH.
I've not seen bulk .25 acp bullets since.

JT
 
Yeah, If your loading that light you need some accurate scales that will read in the1/100 range for sure. The main reason I bought a GP 250. I will take a 10 consecutive powder dumps to check the next decimal place, too. If I'm using a dispenser. This is one way to extend a std scale that only reads in 1/10ths. And yes your using tweezers to add/remove grains of powder.
 
Ok, I just had to go find out:),
never tried throwing a charge that small.

Lee Auto Drum, Lee 3 hole turret, 9mm case-powder drop assembly, not rotating turret
Scale Gem 20 (will change if you breath on it)
AA#2
Charge # Weight
1 1.72 * low
2 1.74
3 1.72
4 1.76
5 1.78 *high
6 1.74
7 1.76
8 1.74
9 1.74
10 1.74

Avg 1.744 gr
ES 0.06
SD 0.01837873

Didn't fiddle with trying to get 1.7 exactly just get close to the middle to get an idea and went from there.
AA#2 sure meters well:D
(ok very small sample, but gives you an idea)
Note: No special care dropping charges, just normal try to be smooth, "cheap" Lee equipment tested.
that's pretty dang impressive, IMO.
 
I currently have Hi-Skor 700X, Red Dot, Bullseye and HP-38.
Of those I'd go with BE or HP-38, which meter much better at small charges than the others. However if you're weighing each charge, Red Dot should be just fine. I agree with the tweezers and flakes comment though. I wonder how much one flake of red dot weighs. :D
 
Even as good as it is, your avg deviation error is 1.05%. With the extreme being 3.44% Just think if you were loading at max you just went over not just a little. Everything is magnified when you start working with small volumes/weights.
 
JT-AR-MG42 wrote:
...but who knew the bullet would become a collectors item?

I know. Now that I have access to a place to shoot it, I would shoot my 25 ACP a lot more if I could just find a regular supply of components for it.
 
Your welcome hdwhit,
got to thinking about it and saying AA#2 meters well really didn't give you any concrete info.
Of course I could have said it meters better than 700X, but that would probably would have been less help.:evil::)
So I figured I would take some time and weigh some, glad I did, I was surprised at the results.

In response to Blue
Just my opinion but a .06 gr diff is pretty darn good, 1 was that far off some were right on at 1.74, 1.74...
You could trickle better.
My question was more if it would be possible to load it with thrown charges and not have to trickle every one. If you were weighing every charge just throw the 1.78 one back and try again, 1.74 ok spot on, good to go.
(If I was really loading it I would be happier loading 1.6x if it would function, leaving myself some wiggle room))
The fact that it meters so close would reduce the # of charges thrown back.
If I was going to load it and trust it I would need to throw and weigh while loading, it makes a difference.
I would weigh a lot more charges first but I feel I could trust it and not have to weigh everyone,
but then again I probably could take the time to weigh every one since I wouldn't be shooting 300-500 at a time.
Makes me wonder if the RCBS lockout die could be dialed in to help, (if it would work) it would need to find less than a 1/10 of a grain but that should be possible given the small case.
:eek:thinking about volume loading a .25
I need help, maybe a support group,
wait a minute that's why I'm here, support group:)

I haven't found anything that meters better than AA#2, quite possible there is something out there that I haven't tried that will, but from what I have seen AA#2 is about as good as it gets.
 
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Ive never loaded 25 cartridges and read this to gain wisdom.
I do load other pistol bullets and can relate to how much difference a flake or two of powder makes.
Loading 45's a while back the chrono told me two specs of powder ( about like 2 specks of spidershit ) was causing 25 to 35 FPS difference loading 230 gr. bullets. That said two specks that size could be a gamechanging amount in a much smaller case even though using a much lighter bullet will help get the pressure down.
 
hdwit: I currently have Hi-Skor 700X, Red Dot, Bullseye and HP-38.
My old Hornady Handbook of cartridge reloading lists as recommended .25 ACP powders Norma R-1, Hi-Skor 700-X, Red Dot, Bullseye, HP38, Win 231. You have four reasonable powders to select from.
My experience with .25ACP handloading is limited to 50 gr bullets with one powder for pure plinking level performance so I can't make recommendations on powder. My respect and condolences, though, to anyone who handloads .25 ACP.

hdwit: I figured I would just fill the reservoir on the trickler and trickle the charge up to weight ....
Definite agreement on that point. .25ACP load increments are in 1/10th of a grain in a very narrow range (Bullseye from min 1.0 gr to max 1.2 gr in the Hornady manual for 50gr bullets). I used a balance scale and trickled powder into the scale pan, removed flakes using an adjustment screwdriver as a scoop if I trickled too much, and hand charged the casings, six or twelve at a session. I then visually inspected the powder levels of the group of charged cases before seating bullets.

I don't hesitate to use a scoop measure reloading .38 special since, in a moderate load well below max, a variance of + or - 0.2 gr does not exceed the design limit of the gun or have much effect on accuracy to 25 yards. With the .25 ACP you don't have + or - .x gr room for error, maybe room for + or - .0x gr variance but + or - .x gr round to round is an error in safety and accuracy. I have been warned over the years to approach maximum pistol loads with caution because double base pistol powders resent getting compressed. With the exception of the H&K HK4, I have not seen a .25ACP pistol I would want to test with near max loads, especially if I loaded them.

By my small experience the tiny .25 ACP components are hard to work with and require great patience. For the same amount of effort per cartridge, I have helped my son handload .308 rounds capable of 1/2" groups at 200 yards. Handloading .25 ACP reminds me of the fable about the mountain going into labor and birthing a mouse. There is a reason .25 ACP reloading components are not commonly stocked by sporting goods stores. It takes a crazy person real dedicated handloader to tackle .25 ACP.
 
Carl R Brown wrote:
It takes a crazy person real dedicated handloader to tackle .25 ACP.

:D

I only load a dozen or so cartridges at a time, so its easy to be patient, dedicated, manically focused or whatever we might want to call it.

I view loading 25 ACP as a labor of love for my little RG-25 (i.e. zamak wonder). It had a hard life before it got to me back in the 1970's. The guy who sold it to me - and I doubt he was the first owner - was using it as a concealed carry gun (before concealed carry was generally legal) and it had started to stovepipe when he shot it so he was afraid it would get him killed. And in his line of "work", it probably would have. I looked it over and it looked like it had never been cleaned. o_O

It took me a while to figure out how to strip it (there were no Youtube videos in those days) and I wasn't that experienced with guns, but I figured whatever was wrong with it was repairable. After a through cleaning, it started working pretty well. I got a replacement magazine and it started working perfectly. In the years since then, it has saved me from getting beaten or killed on two occasions, so I have a strong sentimental attachment to it and would like to continue to load for it and shoot it as long as I can.

I'm not looking to load the thing to the maximum - no point putting that kind of wear and tear on a zinc slide - but it does need to be hot enough to reliably operate the action and I would like to get about 800 to 850 fps (with 35 grain), 700 to 750 fps (with 50 grain) out of it to be consistent with what I loaded in the past.
 
Dudedog wrote:
:eek:thinking about volume loading a .25
I need help, maybe a support group,
wait a minute that's why I'm here, support group:)

:D

For me, the volume is going to be around a dozen cases at a time. The magazine for my pistol holds 6 rounds. I can also use the old magazine (which invariably fails to feed the 6th round) and that's about what I need to shoot to maintain my proficiency.

I know a lot of people deride the 25 ACP, but my experience with it in the pistol I have is that it is easy to shoot, easy to control, easy to reacquire sight picture for a follow-up shot and accurate out to about 2 or 3 yards. And it is small enough that when it was needed, I have produced it from places people did not expect to see a gun; like a cash box or an old Texas Instruments calculator case.

A few years ago, I joined the modern world and got a polymer 9mm, so the 25 ACP has been effectively retired, but it has strong sentimental value to me and I would like to keep loading for it and shooting it as long as I can.
 
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