Browning Copy of M12

[Lone Star]

As most here know, Browning made some reproduction Winchester M12's recently. The ones I've seen are 20 ga. and 28 Ga., which is okay, because I want a 20 ga.

I saw several at a shop today; one 20 ga. and a couple of 28's.

What is the reputation of these "repro" Japanese-made M12's?

They seem to be better made than most modern repeating shotguns.. The steel, the bluing, the stock wood, all look good. Some parts, I hear, may be cast instead of the machined original Winchester parts.

They fit me well, and the 20 ga. works smoothly enough. The "step" in the receiver just ahead of the stock looks a little "melted", as if the polisher may have been overzealous, but I didn't think to compare it to the others. I'll go back and do that...

In, "Shotguns", Elmer Keith said that about the only problem he ever saw with the original M12 was that occasionally a gun (probably after having been shot a great deal) would develop trouble with the recoil ring (whatever that is) and excess headspace would result. Isn't the M12 designed to be adjusted to correct for that? Aren't these Brownings also adjustable?

Price of this one is $575, and it seems new except for scuffing of the bolt from shucking the action. That would presumably wear-in to a certain point and stop.

I've about decided to get one of these unless I find a nearly new M870 (not Express) for a good price, or save up for a Beretta M391 Urika. Frankly, the Beretta is probably beyond my pudent financial reach...

So: what do you guys think: are the Browning pseudo Winchester M12's good guns? Are they still being made?

Lone Star

 

[Dave McCracken]

There's been a fair amount of bandwidth on these on other BBs. By and large, they seem to be good shotguns. They do not have the rep and cachet of the old 12s with the cult.

You may be just as happy with a 20 gauge WM.

Note, all pumps show wear marks with use.

 

[Lone Star]

Dave-

Thanks. Sure, I know that pumps show wear with use; I was just describing the condition of this one. I'm not sure it's ever been outside a store. No wear as yet on the magazine tube...

What about the ability to adjust the headspace condition if it ever appears, and how hard is it to do that? Do we know for sure that Browning incorporated that Winchester feature? About how many rounds does it take to produce excess headspace? I'm guessing that it would take many thousands of shots. The old M12's were often used by market hunters, when that was still legal, and those guys and competitive clay shooters fire their shotguns much more than I would.

Lone Star

 

[Traveler]

There are some differences between the guns, old and new. The major difference is the weight (the older guns are lighter) and the disconnector (which allows the gun to fire when the trigger is held back and it goes into battery).

 

[PJR]

I own Japanese reproduction Model 12 in 20 gauge. It's a Grade IV and one of the thousand that Miroku made for Winchester at the same time they were making them for Browning.

It is a very attractive gun. It is not as smooth as the original Model 12 or a well broken in 870 for that matter. Sometimes I have a trigger glitch were it hangs up briefly that I believe is caused due to the trigger housing screw backing out a bit.

The gun handles every bit as well as the original Model 12 and the stock while a touch short doesn't fit badly. All in all, I am not overwhelmed with satisifaction with the gun but it's a neat little gun that continues to have a place in the safe.

Paul

 

[Fred Fuller]

LS,

The back of the bolt locks into a recess machined into the upper inside curve of the receiver in the M12 design. Over the course of a couple of lifetimes of use, the bolt will eventually batter the recess enough to open headspace a bit. I have known people who had their M12s' receiver welded, remachined etc. to restore them to original contour. This takes a LOT of shooting to make necessary, not likely a "normal" shooter is going to have any problem at all.

See the drawing at http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/win_M12.jpg for a pic of the bolt shape, it doesn't illistrate the locking recess in the receiver though.

I would expect te Japanese guns to be as servicable as the original, though lacking the cachet thereof.

lpl/nc

 

[Lone Star]

Thanks, Lee! But I know I've read somewhere, several places, that the M12 design has some sort of adjustment to compensate for wear.

Anyone know what this is about? Sounds like it might be a different situation than what Lee described...

LS

 

[Sam]

I am not sure about the repro but the origonals are indeed adjustable.
The procedure is easy but too lengthy to describe here.
I suspect the browning folks have retained the feature. The interrupted thread section can be tightened and locked in place by a tab and screw setup.

Sam

 

[Clemson]

I have had both. I owned a reproduction labled "Winchester" -- not "Browning," but it is the same gun. I kept the reproduction for about 3 years. I paid $495 for it brand new, and I sold it for $500 very lightly used. The metalwork was spectacular. The stock was OK but plain.

The parts are interchangeable between the old guns and the new. I know this because I bought an old gun, also a 20 gauge, that had a cut-down barrel, and I used one of the reproduction barrels to replace it. That involves a lot of hand fitting that I would not recommend unless you just like to do that sort of thing. I also had to mill the receiver to accept the rib extension since the repro barrels are vent rib barrels and the original on mine was not ribbed. I am about halfway through the restoration, but I have fired the gun, and it all works.

I was never very pleased with the reproduction gun. It was stiff, and it often failed to chamber a new round. It seemed to tie up on a swollen case head occasionally. I am told that the chamber ring (Which resides inside the receiver where the barrel abuts it) on the originals was cut at the same time as the chamber, all using a pull-through reamer. The reproduction guns tend to have an undersized chamber ring, compared to the chamber itself, and there is a chance for a "lock" to form when a shell is fired that makes extraction more difficult. The ring can be opened up if this is a problem.

The barrel-receiver joint on the Model 12 can develop wear over time. This gun is a takedown gun with an interrupted thread joint. An adjusting bushing or "sleeve" screws onto the end of the barrel, and it is the part that actually screws into the receiver. There is a set of adjusting sleeves in different degrees of "draw" available that can be substituted to take up more or less of this slop so that the barrel/slide assembly indexes correctly. There is also a tab that will hold the sleeve in position, and the sleeve can be clocked around several degrees and held securely by that tab. Overall, it is a complicated mechanism, and it is no wonder why Winchester had to call "Uncle" on manufacturing the gun.

If you like the gun (and it really is a well-made gun), go ahead and get it. You can likely get most of your money back if you decide to sell it. If there is a way to get it on approval and put a few boxes of shells through it before you finalize the deal, you may save yourself any potential disappointment. That would let you know if this particular gun has operating problems.

Clemson

 

[Lone Star]

Clemson-

Thanks so much! This is precisely what I needed to know!

Knowing it, I'll probably get either an M870, an 1100, or hunt down an Ithaca M37, which is hard to find in my area.

Lone Star

 

[Clemson]

Funny you should say that -- I am also working on a restoration of a 20 gauge Model 37 Ithaca. I really prefer its design to that of the Model 12. I also have an 870. It is a good shotgun. It does use stampings and castings where the Model 12 and the Model 37 use machined parts, but it works quite well.

Good luck!

Clemson

 

[PJR]

Clemson:

Thanks for your post on the repro Model 12. It helped answer some questions for me too. I also seem to have solved the trigger glitch in mine after putting 150 rounds through it last night shooting skeet and sporting. I think keeping the trigger assembly screw tight and the little judiciously applied oil has solved the problem.

I also put mine on the patterning board for the first time and found it shoots a touch high. This is excellent news because I can add a much needed recoil pad while will increase the drop slightly because of the added length. This should bring the pattern down to a 50-50 after I'm done.

My Model 12 is by no means the gun I shoot best but it's very eye catching with the gold inlays and attractive wood and it's a fun gun for clay targets.

Paul

 

[Lone Star]

Gentlemen-

I called Remington and Browning today, and my sources spake thus, saying:

Browning: There was no difference between those Miroku-made guns marked, "Browning" and the ones marked, "Winchester".

The Browning man said that he personally owns a 20 ga. M12 by Miroku, and uses it a lot on pheasant hunts, among other fun. He estimates that he has fired not less than 15 cases (each of 500 rounds) through it. It remains in good health, and he is quite fond of it. Said it is just a really nice little gun. Said that about five years stock of spare parts remain, but that any M12 parts can be used or adapted to fit. Said that in the past, he has broken a firing pin or two on genuine, older, Winchester M12's, but it took much shooting to do it. BUT...if one wants to lay in a few spare parts, it might be best to get a firing pin and an extractor. Most people owning one of the Miroku guns won't shoot them enough to break anything.

He thinks the guns are great values and worth buying.

The Remington man used to work in customer service before his present, more exalted, assignment. It is his subjective feeling that maybe one-tenth of one percent of the guns Remington produces are ever returned, and most of the autos (both M1100 and M11-87) they get back are restored to order through simply cleaning them! He admitted that the small added internal cuts and slotted carrier (?) of the 12 ga. M870 in recent times hasn't been applied to 20 ga. 870's. So, the 12 ga. ONLY can be cleared if a shell double-feeds, through a HARD pump of the forearm. The trigger group still has to be taken off the smaller ga. models to clear the jam. BUT he says that the gun I got clearly had a shell holder, probably the right one, out of adjustment, or the problem wouldn't have occurred. He says that the problem is rare, and would be covered under warranty if it did appear. Keep in mind that he does work for Remington, but I think he's honest.

My present thought is to get the Browning M12 copy if it's still there in a month or so when I have the money to act. If it eludes me, I'll get a Wingmaster, and perhaps contemplate getting the M12 later at a gun show, although I don't see many.

I've sort of ruled out the autos after studying one of J.B. Woods's books on firearms disassembly. It reminded me of how the rubber friction rings need to be kept lubed and occasionally replaced to keep Remington autos working well.

Hope this was of interest to some and didn't bore others too badly.

Lone Star

 

[Lone Star]

AND NOW, after which I won't discourse again on the matter (for tonight, at least!)...

I went by the book store and saw the new issue of, "Shooting Sportsman", a title which caters almost exclusively to users of expensive double shotguns. They have an article on the Winchester M42, the .410 version based on the M12. And the author, some bloke named Bruce Buck, added that he likes the Miroku-made M42, although it, unlike the 12 and 20 ga. versions of the M12, lacks enough recoil to always unlock the new style trigger designed to prevent "slam firing". Sometimes, he has to concentrate on releasing the trigger right, before he pumps the gun for the next shot, or it (trigger) can hang up. Because their heavier recoil always (I guess) enables the disconnect feature, those guns don't have this occasional problem.

Buck further notes that the Miroku-made guns were produced on modern CNC-controlled machinery, and the internal machining cuts are actually cleaner than on original Winchester guns. Overall, he likes the Jap guns very well. The article is worth seeking out.

And, that's what I know, for now.

Lone Star

 

[Fred Fuller]

LS,

Couldn't quiiiite see if your tongue was firmly affixed to your cheek when you mentioned Bruce Buck. In case it was not, and you are unfamiliar with him, see http://www.shotgunreport.com/ and click on the Technoid area for some of his other ramblings.

Now Bruce has always been a mite highbrow for a plain ol' country boy like me, but in the rarified atmosphere of the shotgunning sphere he inhabits, he seems to rate a certain amount of respect.

Hope you wind up with a really sweet Model 12, be it original or repro.

lpl/nc

 

[mec]

LoneStar - sorry for interruping the thread but your email address obscure. Just wanted to thank you for the nice mention you laid down about me on another forum. It's good to be remembered in such a postive way.

now back to the subject.....

 

[Lone Star]

mec-

Thanks, Mike. You're very welcome! I suppose that was the one where I said that your material is what gun magazines SHOULD be buying in lieu of the advertiser -pandering junk they usually run?

Glad you post on the Net.

Lone Star
(His Ownself!)

 

[PJR]

There was no difference between those Miroku-made guns marked, "Browning" and the ones marked, "Winchester".

Not quite. There is one difference: Price. According to the 25th Edition of the Blue Book of Gun Values for these guns in 98% condition.

Browning Grade I, $400
Winchester Grade I, $625

Browning Grade V, $695
Winchester Grade IV $850

Yet another example of the Winchester "mystique" at work because they are the same guns made in the same place by the same people.

Paul