Brush Gun Fact or Fiction?

[<*(((><]

Anyone and everyone that has been around guns and hunting have heard the term "brush gun." Now out west here it isn't as much of a known and passed along term as I'm sure it is out east. But that's not to say I didn't hear it growing up, as I did. There are many areas to hunt out here that have clearings, open draws, exposed hill sides, open meadows and the like, so I would say most hunters out here don't seek out shooting through the brush to get their game.

Knowing what bullets are doing through the air it was always my thought that everything will deflect to varying degrees regardless of caliber and bullet weight. There was no doubt that there would be better cartridge, bullet type, and weight scenarios that would perform better and worse. But I've never seen it studied out in a down to earth and practical study.

IraqVeteren8888 did a good job demonstrating the differences that heavy bullets make in efforts to bust through the brush and stay on target. There are some issues with his demonstration, but overall with what he had I though there was some information to be gleaned. His video is on a budget, short and well done and one can see a definite trend towards heavier and heavier bullets with blunter profiles tracking better through the brush. Nothing ground breaking here but I enjoyed watching his demonstration.



So what is your favorite brush gun, caliber and bullet weight?

 

[jmorris]

I remember reading an article years ago where the author had built a board that had wood dowels that were fired through in an effort to be a bit more scientific. Still difficult to repeat identical impact points for repeatable results.

I bet the fellow that created the impacts 2:00 into this video could do great testing on the subject.



Most of my “brush” guns are so named because they are better suited for short range. I generally wait for unobstructed shots myself but I also do a lot of trimming during the year too.

 

[<*(((><]

Yes, I've been entranced by the video you posted before, it is so soothing to watch. Really cool video. It would be interesting if the author of that video could provide some high-speed brush collisions that would show trajectory change with different cartridges.

 

[Bartojc]

Anyone and everyone that has been around guns and hunting have heard the term "brush gun." Now out west here it isn't as much of a known and passed along term as I'm sure it is out east. But that's not to say I didn't hear it growing up, as I did. There are many areas to hunt out here that have clearings, open draws, exposed hill sides, open meadows and the like, so I would say most hunters out here don't seek out shooting through the brush to get their game.

Knowing what bullets are doing through the air it was always my thought that everything will deflect to varying degrees regardless of caliber and bullet weight. There was no doubt that there would be better cartridge, bullet type, and weight scenarios that would perform better and worse. But I've never seen it studied out in a down to earth and practical study.

IraqVeteren8888 did a good job demonstrating the differences that heavy bullets make in efforts to bust through the brush and stay on target. His video is on a budget, short and well done and one can see a definite trend towards heavier and heavier bullets tracking better through the brush. Nothing ground breaking here but I enjoyed watching his demonstration.



So what is your favorite brush gun, caliber and bullet weight?

How appropriate. I missed my first deer in over 25 years last week due to an ill placed sapling. Shooing down a 110 yard lane at about 75 yards I glanced off said sapling. The snow falling off the sapling was the proof that if I hit the target it would be more luck than anything. Later last week I made a similar shot from the same location this time no sapling, so all was not lost.

Hunting in MI most of my life a "brush" gun was mostly a 30-30 or 35 Rem. All in lever action. When I was a kid "deer" rifle was synonymous with 30-30. Great video.

-Jeff

 

[rbernie]

one can see a definite trend towards heavier and heavier bullets tracking better through the brush.
....
So what is your favorite brush gun, caliber and bullet weight?

While bullet weight / momentum certainly has its value, I was always taught that the bullet shape was the principal factor - bullets with a blunt noses tended not to want to veer and ricochet as much as spitzer style bullets.

In the past, I’ve used 174 grain round nose in 7.62 x 39 as well as traditional 30/30 and 35 Remington woods loads to good effect. Today, my walkabout/brush gun is likely to be a 358 Winchester.

 

[<*(((><]

Today, my walkabout/brush gun is likely to be a 358 Winchester.

I'm on the hunt, no pun intended for a 358 Winchester. Awesome cartridge.

 

[<*(((><]

I remember reading an article years ago where the author had built a board that had wood dowels that were fired through in an effort to be a bit more scientific. Still difficult to repeat identical impact points for repeatable results.

I had heard about that article, something was said about the dowels being kiln dried and wondering how accurate it would be in comparison to live branches.

 

[Captcurt]

We tested several different calibers when I was a teen 50 years ago. We set up a large box with a 6" target behind a jungle of brush and sumac and plinked away. If memory serves me, we had 22 LR, 244, 270, 30-06, 44 mag and a 12ga. with slugs and buckshot. Firing 3 shots from different angles we found that the only one that was consistent at getting to the target was buckshot. There have been a few more test since then, but little has chnged. A lot depended on the distance of the target from the brush. A bullet was more likely to hit close if the target was close to the brush.

4 years ago I made a sneak on one of the best bucks that I had seen in many years. Took a good rest with a 243 that shoots 1/2 MOA and watched the buck hit the cedars after the shot. I was so sure that I would find him just inside the woods that I was totally flabbergasted when I couldn't find a drop of blood. I searched for 2 hours and returned the next day and looked another 2. Nothing. Retracing my steps I found a broken limb a couple of feet in front of where my barrel had been. The 95gr glanced off of the limb and only God knows where it went. Would a larger caliber make it to the deer? I doubt it. There was 130 yards of air between that limb and the deer. Even a 1 degree angle change would have sent that bullet into orbit.

 

[slicksleeve]

Years ago I missed a deer with my .444 Marlin. Speer 270 grain gold dot bullets used. After watching it run away, I noticed a broken limb no larger than a pencil swinging in front of my stand about 20 feet away. It didn’t even cut it into. The bullet impacted the dirt about 30 feet in front of the deer. Since then I try my best to pick clear shooting lanes.

 

[<*(((><]

A lot depended on the distance of the target from the brush. A bullet was more likely to hit close if the target was close to the brush.

An obvious but good thing to have in ones mind if shooting through brush. If the game is on the immediate other side of the brush the distance for the bullet to change trajectory is diminished greatly. Nothing ground breaking but something to have in one's mind.

 

[<*(((><]

4 years ago I made a sneak on one of the best bucks that I had seen in many years. Took a good rest with a 243 that shoots 1/2 MOA and watched the buck hit the cedars after the shot. I was so sure that I would find him just inside the woods that I was totally flabbergasted when I couldn't find a drop of blood. I searched for 2 hours and returned the next day and looked another 2. Nothing. Retracing my steps I found a broken limb a couple of feet in front of where my barrel had been. The 95gr glanced off of the limb and only God knows where it went. Would a larger caliber make it to the deer? I doubt it. There was 130 yards of air between that limb and the deer. Even a 1 degree angle change would have sent that bullet into orbit.

It's amazing what one looks past in the cross hairs of a scope, probably didn't even show up in your scope being that close to your barrel. It's not unlike people forgetting about the scope offset and shooting the hood/roof of their vehicle when using it as an impromptu rest.

 

[<*(((><]

Years ago I missed a deer with my .444 Marlin. Speer 270 grain gold dot bullets used. After watching it run away, I noticed a broken limb no larger than a pencil swinging in front of my stand about 20 feet away. It didn’t even cut it into. The bullet impacted the dirt about 30 feet in front of the deer. Since then I try my best to pick clear shooting lanes.

That's surprising with the .444 Marlin, would have thought it would have kept going relatively straight. Just goes to show you that it's not an exact science on using "brush busters."

 

[slicksleeve]

I also made the mistake in my youth of hunting with 240 grain jhp pistol bullets. Shot a nice buck square in the shoulder at 25 yards. Couldn’t find it. My neighbor killed it 5 days later and when he skinned it out, the bullet had never penetrated the chest cavity. Nowadays, I load the 265 grain Hornady jacketed flat nosed that are designed for it. THEY WORK. But I will still not shoot it or any other through a brushy obstruction.

 

[someguy2800]

The confirmation bias in this video is unbelievable. He was not on average any more accurate on target with the big bores than he was the small bores. Yet somehow the small bore bullets that missed are because they deflected, and the big bore bullets that missed are because his point of aim was off???? huh what?

I too as the others have mentioned have seen deer walk off unharmed after taking down a tree branch. I have had it happen to me twice. This has been tested many many times over the years and there are half a dozen tests you can find with a google search with all results agreeing that ALL bullets deflect when hitting small branches and twigs. The moral of the story is don't shoot at something if you don't have a clear line of sight to it.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Every real deer rifle I have ever used would be considered a brush gun. I don’t take shots through brush though.

I have used in this order:

12 ga Foster slugs pump
20 ga foster slugs pump
12 ga sabots pump
20 ga sabots pump
444 Marlin Lever
44 Magnum lever
45-70 lever

I don’t consider 30-30 a “brush” cartridge but then again, I don’t consider any other cartridge one either. I used these guns because of legislation or because of personal preference and it was all long before I ever heard the term “brush gun”.

 

[someguy2800]

To me a brush gun means either a shotgun or rifle that is short in length so as not to snag on everything in sight when walking through thick brush and with sights that are fast to aquire, either peep sights or a scope with a big field of view. It has nothing to do with shooting through brush.

 

[adcoch1]

There is no such thing as a bullet for repeatable accuracy through brush. Tried it and it can't be done. Sometimes a success isn't good enough for the animal I am shooting at.

That said, there are lots of good guns for hunting in brush. A short, handy rifle works great in the thick stuff due to its maneuverability, and close range accuracy is acceptable. I like compact rifles or handguns for the rain forests of the PNW where I hunt.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

It is absolute fiction that there is a cartridge out there that can mow down a lot of brush and not veer off target.

When I think of a brush gun, I think of a shorter barreled rifle that handles well with either a low powered scope or iron sights.

 

[Slamfire]

This is how the industry expands the market. You need to buy, buy, buy. A rifle for every occasion. A rifle for every holiday. A different one for weekdays versus week ends. You need more rifles than women need handbags and shoes, at least according to the advertising.

A standard 30-30 leveraction will do everything you need in the brush. I hunted with slug guns and when the game jumps up and disappears when it reaches 50 yards, you really don't need a Weatherby magnum. A 12 GA slug will make a big hole in a deer. Whether it deflects or not, who cares. If there is a big enough tree in the way, it will not reach what you are aiming at.

 

[<*(((><]

The confirmation bias in this video is unbelievable. He was not on average any more accurate on target with the big bores than he was the small bores. Yet somehow the small bore bullets that missed are because they deflected, and the big bore bullets that missed are because his point of aim was off???? huh what?

One could clearly see the lighter bullets keyholing in the cardboard. But in the same breath I don't think it's as simple as he was making it out to be. A big problem is the projectiles he called good that didn't hit any brush heading to it's target, now he may say that he picked a thick enough brushy area to shoot through that it was next to impossible to not hit something, but he did not say such. Hence, the reason why I started this thread, as I know there are differing opinions/experiences out there.

But we do know that the FBI has done a wealth of work on penetration of angled windshields which has albeit a loose correlation with what the topic at hand is. Heavy for caliber, higher SD bullets tend to continue in a more linear path through a windshield than lighter for caliber bullets with less SD.

In the end I think there is some validity that a heavy, more blunt projectile will continue on it's path better than a lighter, spire point projectile.

 

[<*(((><]

It is absolute fiction that there is a cartridge out there that can mow down a lot of brush and not veer off target.

I don't think anyone is saying that. We are talking about differences between styles/weights/etc of cartridges. Not a cartridge that can "mow down a lot of brush and not veer off target." That comment sensationalized the topic at hand and doesn't add to the discussion on possible differences between styles/weights/etc of cartridges.

Not trying to be harsh, just don't want this thread to amount to people thinking in sensational ways about the topic.

 

[<*(((><]

I too refer to a brush gun as a light, shorter barreled gun with close range sights that is easily maneuverable. This topic is about whether there is validity to the term "brush gun" as it relates to going through brush. Trying to keep the topic on the right path here.

 

[<*(((><]

The big problem with being scientific about this topic is there are so many variables to consider in an organic environment that the outdoors provides. Variables such as: density of wood, angle the projectile hit the wood at, how much give the wood has when hit, shape/velocity/weight/caliber, etc.

 

[22250Rem]

A friend lost a deer back in the 1980's to a small branch. Contender handgun with a 444 Marlin barrel on it. We looked for a long time for some blood or hair but found nothing. He went back and sat down where he had fired from. He knew where the deer stood when he fired, ( 50-60 yds ) and looked again through the scope at where he had been aiming. Saw a small branch in his field of view about 20 yds. out. We checked it and it was freshly clipped clean off. He was concentrating on his 4 legged target so much that he didn't notice the small branch. It can happen; especially when a deer shows up and your focus concentrates on that one deer.

 

[adcoch1]

The big problem with being scientific about this topic is there are so many variables to consider in an organic environment that the outdoors provides. Variables such as: density of wood, angle the projectile hit the wood at, how much give the wood has when hit, shape/velocity/weight/caliber, etc.

Due to the amount of variables there is no scientific way to assure that picking a certain projectile over another design will increase your hit percentage. I get your intended point, that in a static environment, will a flat meplat work better than a spire point. The answer is not ascertainable, so I say brush cartridges are fiction.
To add, a flat meplat will penetrate straighter through TISSUE in an animal, but not through multiple hits on brush components.

That said, there is a case for flat shooting cartridges to lessen the probability of accidentally knicking a branch while shooting through a HOLE in the brush.