Bullet Energy
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MCgunner
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buck460XVR
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Go back and reread my post. I never said it did.
While they don't have anything to do with terminal ballistics, they should be a factor to those with little knowledge of firearms, when those folks are choosing a caliber/platform/ammo for hunting. ME, like I said, is only a very rough estimate of a bullets potential to do damage. But it is easy to determine, is a universal measurment and it is easy to find. Ammo makers generally post it on the side of the ammo box or it is readily found on their website. This is why DNR and F&G folks use it. Not because it is perfect or because folks with experience hunting that game animal don't know what to use. It's a starting point. When I started hunting deer, I had no choice of what firearm or ammo to use. I used whatever gun was left in the closet that was legal for deer. Same with ammo. Whatever was left in the cupboard over the broom closet and fit that gun, is what I had for the season. Lots of folks did back then. Many still do. Many folks out there want to hunt and don't have a clue as to what to use. Using a KISS philosophy, game regulators can give them a practical starting point with one simple number. I have a lot of friends that are successful bow hunters that have never hunted during rifle season. I would certainly recommend or suggest ammo and firearm platforms differently to them as I would to someone who has never walked into the woods or picked up a gun. Iffin they were going to hunt an area like many here in Wisconsin, where you're hunting an parcel of 80 acres with posted land all around with no access to trail a wounded deer, I would certainly suggest something different than for that person going to the high fence game farm down the road, or the person hunting the big woods just north of me. Whatever I suggest, it would be legal. Just as when folks are hunting states that require a combo with a minimal ME. This is when it is an important figure.
I too agree that these types discussions can be productive. But they always get to a point where it just goes around and around. This thread, IMHO, has reached that. There's a difference between a discussion and nit-picking and it's not a fine line. Some folks would argue that the sky is not blue.
35 Whelen
Member
Energy figures, where projectiles are concerned, are nothing but largely irrelevant figures derived from mathematical formulas, formulas that tell us absolutely nothing about how a bullet will perform in flesh and bone. Their only use might be to compare the terminal ballistics of bullets of similar caliber, weight and construction (e.g. .338" 225 gr. bullet vs. .358" 225 gr. bullet or a .277" 150 gr. bullet vs. a .284" 150 gr. bullet) at various ranges.
Projectiles with similar energy figures but with vastly differing terminal effects:
.243/6mm 75 gr. HP @ 2700 fps (varmint bullet)
.458" 400 gr. SP or cast WFN @ 1500 fps (large/heavy game bullet)
.224" 55 gr. HP @ 2700 fps (varmint bullet)
.429" 260 gr. Cast SWC @ 1250 fps (medium game bullet)
.223" 27 gr. LRN (.22 Short) @ ~1100 fps (plinking bullet)
1" 2 lb. lance/spear @ 50 fps (put food on the table since the beginning of time bullet)
.043" 15 gr. sewing needle @ 6000 fps (for sewing really fast)
.308" 150 gr. FN soft point @ 1900 fps (staple for deer hunting for 100 years)
35W
Projectiles with similar energy figures but with vastly differing terminal effects:
.243/6mm 75 gr. HP @ 2700 fps (varmint bullet)
.458" 400 gr. SP or cast WFN @ 1500 fps (large/heavy game bullet)
.224" 55 gr. HP @ 2700 fps (varmint bullet)
.429" 260 gr. Cast SWC @ 1250 fps (medium game bullet)
.223" 27 gr. LRN (.22 Short) @ ~1100 fps (plinking bullet)
1" 2 lb. lance/spear @ 50 fps (put food on the table since the beginning of time bullet)
.043" 15 gr. sewing needle @ 6000 fps (for sewing really fast)
.308" 150 gr. FN soft point @ 1900 fps (staple for deer hunting for 100 years)
35W
Thanks for your service guy. I looked up the weight of the 50 cal BMG, and the book value is 84 pounds. If you sling carried that thing as a personnel sidearm, you are an amazing individual.
Instead of Jessie Ventura, you should have been packing the M134 mini gun!
Now this guy, he had a generator to run the gun, just where is Jesse's power source?
I did look up the free recoil of the 50 caliber BMG, which as you probably know, was developed as an anti tank round in WW1 and a 31 pound, 50 BMG Barret, has 97 foot pound of recoil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil. I have never been near a Barrett, and I don't want to. I have been near Win Magnum rifles with muzzle breaks, and that was unpleasant!
I tried to find a video of someone firing a 50 BMG offhand, and was unsuccessfull, but did find this video
The rifle in the videos, the 700 Nitro Xpress T-Rex Elephant Rifle , it is reported that the typical average muzzle velocity of a factory-loaded cartridge is 2,000 ft/s (610 m/s). In the 18-pound (8.2 kg) rifle used by Accurate Reloading this would result in recoil energy of approximately 160 ft⋅lbf (220 J)
700 nitro xpress firing
It can seen that the amount of recoil energy of the rifle and cartridge is such, that very few men have the hand strength to hold the weapon. Almost everyone appears to be hurt by the recoil. The point I would like to make, is that man portable weapons, which lets say, 10 pounds is a maximum, are bounded by recoil energy and the ability of a normal human to carry the things, and survive the recoil! I did find lot of videos mocking women, who were handed firearms, which the recoil exceeded their hand strength. Sometimes the women were knocked over, and none of them are firing bolt action 50 Cal BMG’s, or 700 Nitro Express rounds.
Idiots With Guns Compilation
You know, if the sky is the limit for open carry, well, the five inch naval cannon is something to be considered.
Maybe before my “back injury” (ahem) I could have packed one of these , that 55 lb shell is not going to leave a wound channel on anything it encounters. This thing has the power to completely disintegrate any flesh and blood creature hit by a shell. It also works against destroyers, if you are looking for war ships to plink.
This has wheels, much more convent to carry, only 19,800 pounds, surely this is something that is packable, after sufficient trips to the gym.
I did take a look at a bunch of fun video's on blackpowder cartridges. I really like what this guy put together, he used ballistic gelatin, adjusts the velocity of the cartridge so the impact velocity is equal to a 100 yard velocity. I suspect he does that, because he can't cast ballistic gelatin large enough for the CEP of the weapon at 100 yards! After the firing, you get to see the "wound trauma" that the bullet created, and he does volume and penetration analysis.
I am absolutely impressed by the wound channel created by the soft lead bullet of this early blackpowder cartridge rifle.
Ballistic gelatine tests of the M 1867/77 Werndl rifle
The Minie ball did good, for something that was traveling around a 1000 fps. And if you got the Lorenz bullet to tumble, the wound was even worse.
Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine
Round balls did a lot of damage, and so did ersatz bullets.
Round ball vs cut lead - gelatine tests, accuracy, ballistics, historical background
Now the assumption is, within the boundaries of a hand held weapon, with a low enough recoil that a human can handle the thing, that the size of the wound channel and the depth of penetration are directly related to lethality. And I think, based on what I see, these gelatin blocks are a more realistic test media, and I hope "calibrated" than water jugs, wet newspaper, wet phone books, dux seal, wood dowels, clay, etc. And you know, I would like to see for every weapon and bullet combination, that I read about in inprint media, just what the combination does in ballistic media. And, why don't we see that?
alsaqr
Member
Show me.
mcb
Member
https://ryancleckner.com/texas-triggers-1000-yard-shot-with-a-barrett-m82-50-sniper-rifle/
Off-hand, 1000 yards, and he hits in one go.
MCgunner
Member
mcb
Member
Except some of us have a smile on our face while beating the dead horse. He looks grumpy.
alsaqr
Member
How did our ancestors kill anything with patched round balls before the invention of "foot pounds of energy"? i'll tell you how: They put the round ball where it did the most damage. Since about 2012 i've killed a couple dozen wild hogs and 7-10 deer with patched round balls and lost one animal: One hog got went down, jumped up and was later found dead about 100 yards away.
https://imgur.com/kDqSWAL
https://imgur.com/tdG85aZ
https://imgur.com/O71u6QK
https://imgur.com/r1YwNWw
Some bullet makers claim their expensive bullet can make the difference in a marginal shot situation: i've tracked dozens of wounded deer and elk for other hunters: A gut shot is still a gut shot. A .490 round ball in the vitals trumps a 180 grain .300 magnum bullet in the guts.
https://imgur.com/kDqSWAL
https://imgur.com/tdG85aZ
https://imgur.com/O71u6QK
https://imgur.com/r1YwNWw
Some bullet makers claim their expensive bullet can make the difference in a marginal shot situation: i've tracked dozens of wounded deer and elk for other hunters: A gut shot is still a gut shot. A .490 round ball in the vitals trumps a 180 grain .300 magnum bullet in the guts.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Four pages seems like enough for now. 
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