Bullet seating and crimp die precision

[LightningRD]

To everyone at The High Road, I am new here and new to reloading. I apologize in advance for my partial ignorance, I am still learning from all the wise and different opinions of the reloaders out there.

My question is concerning which die will seat the bullet more precisely.

I am doing research on all the materials I will need for my Lee reloading kit and I ran across the Lee bullet seating die as well as the Lee bullet seating and crimp die. It is my understanding that the bullet seating and crimp die can perform the bullet seating without a crimp (I will not be crimping my brass) just like the regular bullet seating die. However, during the action of the lever pull on the press, the bullet is straightened out as it enters the die so it fits nicely in the neck of the case and shoots accurately. But, will the bullet have a straighter lie in the bullet seating die (seeing as there is just one function of the die it makes sense to me that it will give a straighter lie) or will the two dies give the bullet the same precise lie?

 

[Potatohead]

Someone with more than experience than I will be along shortly to answer your question, but welcome to THR.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Look at the Sinclair Intl. web site, look at the seating dies, Forster die are the one to look at.

Not cheap but the best tooling you can get.

 

[LightningRD]

jaguarxk120, I would agree. Those and the Redding dies are well worth the money and will produce a better bullet lie on a consistent basis. However, I am on a budget and seeing as the Lee dies are cheap and will do what I need with just about the same quality as the others those were best fit for my setup. I am open to upgrading in the future but the Lee dies will suit me for now.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Welcome to THR and to reloading!

Precision is not only based on the dies. The press as well as the stroke speed and ft. lb. of force differences can change the seating depth +/- .005". Also bullet Ogive can change OAL, but not necessarily actual seating depth and depending on what your loading may hold more or less value to actual accuracy.

I have Lee Dies for my 9mm and good bullets are within +/- .002". Some not so great cast rounds lately are +/- .006. The Ogive are crap to say the least. But in the end they shoot well, accurate, and no lead after 200+ rounds before cleaning and a patch is all that I needed to clean the barrel.

What are you loading for?

 

[gamestalker]

Welcome to THR LightningRD!

I use RCBS competition seating dies. they have a collar that slides over the bullet and holds it straight while it enters the seating cup. For the type of shooting I do, which doesn't include any competition, it seems very effective. Seems as though the collar helps keep the bullet aligned while it enters the case mouth.

GS

 

[moxie]

Wreck-n-crew,
Please elaborate on your concept of precession in reloading.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I think he means using the same speed/pressure on the lever?

Redding and Forster make comparable seat dies. I'd say the Cadillacs of dies.

I dislike the Lee seat die even though it makes better than factory ammo. I suppose RCBS would be the standard and is the tried and true die.

 

[moxie]

Oh, "precision?" That makes more sense.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

To everyone at The High Road, I am new here and new to reloading. I apologize in advance for my partial ignorance, I am still learning from all the wise and different opinions of the reloaders out there.

My question is concerning which die will seat the bullet more precisely.

I am doing research on all the materials I will need for my Lee reloading kit and I ran across the Lee bullet seating die as well as the Lee bullet seating and crimp die. It is my understanding that the bullet seating and crimp die can perform the bullet seating without a crimp (I will not be crimping my brass) just like the regular bullet seating die. However, during the action of the lever pull on the press, the bullet is straightened out as it enters the die so it fits nicely in the neck of the case and shoots accurately. But, will the bullet have a straighter lie in the bullet seating die (seeing as there is just one function of the die it makes sense to me that it will give a straighter lie) or will the two dies give the bullet the same precise lie?

This comment assumes you are loading pistol ammo, not rifle.

I don't think there would be any significant difference between the seating and the combo die. I used the combo die, but don't crimp with it, since I use the Lee FCD for crimping. Again assuming pistol ammo, the Lee die sets (3-die or 4-die) will give you what you need, instead of choosing dies a-la-carte. Make sure you get the carbide sizing die!!

What I have found makes the most difference is the bullet seating die insert. The die body locates the case and the insert locates the bullet. If you try to use the standard (round nose) insert on flat point or hollow point bullets, they will not be straightened as they are seated, resulting in crooked bullets (and poor accuracy - ask me how I know). Lee will make a custom insert for any bullet you send them for a very nominal fee. I used standard inserts as a mold and with epoxy customized them to fit the nose of my bullets.

I know bench rest rifle shooters don't crimp some rounds, but as I understand it pistol cartridges must be crimped. Revolvers, so the bullets don't walk out under recoil, pistol bullets so they don't seat deeper under recoil (dangerous condition!) or during chambering. And both so they properly fit the chamber after belling the case to insert the bullets.

Welcome to the forum and to reloading.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I didn't catch that the first time I read it. That's funny. I'm so used to poor spelling and really bad "grammer" that I just skipped right over it.

 

[steve4102]

To everyone at The High Road, I am new here and new to reloading. I apologize in advance for my partial ignorance, I am still learning from all the wise and different opinions of the reloaders out there.

My question is concerning which die will seat the bullet more precisely.

I am doing research on all the materials I will need for my Lee reloading kit and I ran across the Lee bullet seating die as well as the Lee bullet seating and crimp die. It is my understanding that the bullet seating and crimp die can perform the bullet seating without a crimp (I will not be crimping my brass) just like the regular bullet seating die. However, during the action of the lever pull on the press, the bullet is straightened out as it enters the die so it fits nicely in the neck of the case and shoots accurately. But, will the bullet have a straighter lie in the bullet seating die (seeing as there is just one function of the die it makes sense to me that it will give a straighter lie) or will the two dies give the bullet the same precise lie?

What cartridge, rifle or pistol?

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

That's what I get for not checking the spell checker!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You can take any seating/crimping die and raise the die body up, lower the bullet seating stem down and not use the crimp function. As far as which gives you the most accuracy, that would be the bench rest or competition dies.

If you are shooting at 100yds or less you probably won't notice any difference between them and a set of Lee standard dies.

I have them all and use each set for what it works best for.

 

[Schwing]

As has been stated, if you are talking about any handgun caliber, the dies brand is going to be nearly irrelevant. I have even gone back to the lee seating and crimping die and can't tell the slightest difference.

Now, if you are doing long distance shooting with rifle calibers, that is another story.

 

[Walkalong]

I really like Forster sizers. Redding and RCBS make good ones as well. The Lee Dead Length bullet seater works very well too.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am doing research on all the materials I will need for my Lee reloading kit and I ran across the Lee bullet seating die as well as the Lee bullet seating and crimp die. It is my understanding that the bullet seating and crimp die can perform the bullet seating without a crimp (I will not be crimping my brass) just like the regular bullet seating die. However, during the action of the lever pull on the press, the bullet is straightened out as it enters the die so it fits nicely in the neck of the case and shoots accurately. But, will the bullet have a straighter lie in the bullet seating die (seeing as there is just one function of the die it makes sense to me that it will give a straighter lie) or will the two dies give the bullet the same precise lie?

Welcome to the forum...

If you are loading handgun ammo crimping is a necessity. If it's semi-auto ammo you will need to at least remove the slight bell added to facilitate starting the bullet. If you don't it's possible the case won't seat correctly in the barrel. (or worse)

With revolver ammo you will need to add at least a light crimp into the manufacturers provided crimp groove to prevent bullet pull. The more recoil the more crimp you will want to add. A light crimp for target .38 Special ammo and a heavy crimp for magnum loads.

Most handgun die sets come with a seating die that will also crimp the case in addition to seating the bullet. IMO the ability to crimp with the seating die has no effect on how the die seats the bullet. The crimp is done just as the bullet is "bottomed" so it won't effect how well the bullet starts into the case.

I have used most company's handgun dies but for loading handgun ammo I own only Lee Carbide die sets. That is mostly because of their low price without sacrificing accuracy and the "powder through expansion die" that's in the set which works perfectly with the Lee Pro Auto-Disk on a turret press. I find the Lee seating die to work very well and see no difference between it and more expensive handgun seating dies. (not the match rifle seating dies, handgun seating dies)

I use Lee dies because they work well, cost little and come with a powders through die. If that suits your needs don't worry about Lee die quality. (IMO of course) I also like using their FCD to seat and crimp in a separate operation. (I use a Lee Classic 4 hole turret press for handgun loading)

 

[gamestalker]

Yep, I'll never forget my first experience with wheel gun cartridges. I thought I had enough roll crimp with some stout 296 loads and ended up with powder all over the place, and a locked up cylinder, what a mess.

And I did the opposite when loading my first auto loading cartridges. I crimped super excessive, thinking I was supposed to put a visible crimp into the mouth and ended up with such extremely poor neck tension, that I could pull them out with my bare hands, and all the bullets were squished out of normal shape, they looked like coke bottles.

It's been several decades ago, but I'll likely never forget my first. My first bottle neck loading went fine, but then again, I don't crimp any bottle neck cartridges, except 30-30.

GS

 

[LightningRD]

I will be shooting the R700 with an unmodified stock and the 24" thicker varmint barrel chambered in 308 WIN. Down the road I'll be upgrading everything (e.g. free float bull barrel, custom stock, competition grade dies, etc.). I will be using the SMK 175 gr bullets with IMR 4895 powder and Federal 210M primers. And I am aware that long range shooter in general don't crimp so a more consistent pressure builds up behind the bullet.

Wreck-n-Crew, it makes sense that a slower lever pull will seat the bullet more accurately on a consistent basis. With plenty of patience this will become part of my routine.
SkinnedKnuckles, I have heard before that they make skins for the bullets but I also heard they don't match the Ogive and are often oversized. I imagine this problem is fixed by sending in the bullet you're shooting to get a skin to match the Ogive of the given bullet. With the Lee die's bullet straightening track (I'm not entirely sure how this works but I've read that it works amazingly) and the skin it seems like accuracy within 0.002" can be achieved on a consistent basis.

With a little more research on the RCBS and Lee dead length seating die I think I'll be able to order my entire setup tomorrow. Thanks for the help yall!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Wreck-n-Crew, it makes sense that a slower lever pull will seat the bullet more accurately on a consistent basis. With plenty of patience this will become part of my routine.
SkinnedKnuckles, I have heard before that they make skins for the bullets but I also heard they don't match the Ogive and are often oversized. I imagine this problem is fixed by sending in the bullet you're shooting to get a skin to match the Ogive of the given bullet. With the Lee die's bullet straightening track (I'm not entirely sure how this works but I've read that it works amazingly) and the skin it seems like accuracy within 0.002" can be achieved on a consistent basis.

You lost me on this one. What skin are you talking about? Are you talking about the bullet seating stem profile in the bullet seating die? I'm just guessing.

 

[fguffey]

Bullet seating and crimp die precision

I have Weatherby dies with the sliding sleeve meaning the bullet is not floated on top of the case when the ram is raised, the bullet is placed on the mouth of the case after the ram raises the case to the seating die. Same for Herter dies, Lyman dies, and I have Gold Medal and completion seating dies that function the same way. I also made a seater that does not have a die body, it accurately centers the bullet with the neck of the case with neck support.

I only crimp pistol bullets, I do not crimp rifle. The Gold Medal and competition seating dies do not crimp, Dillon decided there was a conflict when seating and crimping at the same time, they decided the crimp could reduce bullet hold if the neck bulged below the crimp, and thus, reducing bullet hold, or the shoulder of the case could collapse the case below the neck and cause a bulge.

Crimping with precision requires precession case length trimming. I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the hold I can get, if bullet hold messes with precession I go with bullet hold. Unlike everyone else I have rifles that are accurate, I do not test the accuracy of a bullet by clamping the barrel in a vise, I use sand bags, I do have a sled, a one of a kind sled I plan to take to the range. Winchester returned a rifle I sent to them, I ran 120 rounds through it before I complained, Winchester instructed me to shoot it more???
The sled? I have no interest in taking a beating just to find out the rifle still scatters bullets like a shotgun.

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

Lee dead length seating die

Lee's dead length seating die adjustment may require it to contact the shell holder. This should give a more constant COL. May not work at all if using a progressive press where each shell plates station deck heigth is different? The seating stem/plug should fit the bullet well. I dont use Lee. You may find this helpful? http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support