Bushing sizing dies : Redding, Forster, Hornady..

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SteveW-II

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I am looking at buying a bushing based neck sizing die to resize the 308 cases from my bolt target gun. Right now, I am using a Lee Collet die which gets me about 3 to 4 thou of run out in a loaded round. I hope to get smaller run out numbers with a bushing die.

I wondered if anyone had experience of the Redding type 'S', Forster Precision Plus or Hornady Match Grade dies to share ?

Do they all bump the shoulder back a little when sizing the neck without sizing the rest of the case ?

How much undersize do you order the bushings ? The literature says 2 to 3 thou, but it's clear that you can vary the case tension like this and not need to consider crimping..

Again, looking for input and opinion.

Thanks..
 
Redding Type S Neck Dies do not mess with the shoulder of the brass at all. They size only neck of case! This is also true of other brands, Redding does offer a Type S FL die, too. If you buy a Redding Type S Neck Match Die set you get the body die, to bump the shoulder when needed.

RCBS has both a FL and Neck Gold Medal die set, and they use Redding or Wilson Bushings.

Forster usew proprietary bushings, I think. Hornady does not offer that broad a range of bushings like that of Redding bushings... Plus the Redding bushings can be had in steel or titanium coated bushings.

Most sort of want 2 thousanths tension. So, measure your neck wall thickness and multiply by 2 and and the bullet diameter ie 0.308, then subtract 0.002" for a bushing size. Each brand of brass will be different and may even vary with different lots of brass from same company.
 
Steve, I have Redding competition sets in a bunch of calibers and I typically neck size 0.002" to 0.003" under the OD of the neck of a loaded round. USSR made a good point recently ... he mentioned that if you're reducing the neck size by 0.005" or more in one sizing, a 0.334" bushing will size the neck to 0.333". I checked this recently and he's absolutely right. If you buy the Redding set, get the TiNi bushing ... it's worth the extra cost. As 45ACPUSER mentioned, you'll need a body die which comes with the Type 'S' sets but not with the competition sets as far as I remember.

:)
 
Thanks Fellas..

The Hornady Match Dies come in two flavours, full length size or 'shoulder bump', both using a bushing to size the neck.
From Hornadys web site : "Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die"
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=75d394f11b7903b7c4ee4528cfcc6157

The Forster is only a shoulder bump, with neck bushing.
http://www.forsterproducts.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=83

I guess the Redding is just a neck sizer, and you buy the body die to go with it.

When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?

Thanks !
 
Quote for Hornady page?

Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die.
This is new to me "shoulder bump neck size" is that possible? :confused: If you push the shoulder back, something has to support the body, its called Full Length Resizing. I use Redding FLRS type S bushing die.
 
Forster PRECISION PLUS™ BUSHING BUMP NECK SIZING DIE (less bushing)

Reloading Dies & Parts

The Precision Plus Bushing Bump Sizing Die brings an advanced precision level to hand loaders by allowing you to precisely control the amount of neck sizing tension in your reloaded cartridge brass. The Precision Plus improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the necks are sized down as little as necessary while still "bumping" the shoulder of the case to maintain overall case concentricity and cartridge headspace length. Best of all, it prevents overworking the necks and allows you to control the amount of neck tension for your bullet seating operation.

Seems like a using a Redding Type S FL Die?

Hornady
For ultra-precise alignment and match-winning performance from your press, you’ll want Hornady’s Match Grade New Dimension™ Dies. The neck size die features interchangeable, self-centering neck size bushings (available in .002” increments) that eliminate the chance of oversizing your case necks and overworking the brass.
Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die.

Seems to me like Redding Type S Neck and FL Sizer?
 
I have been taking my 308 Lapua brass down in two passes with a 339" bushing and them using .336" bushing, and I do the same thing with WW/BHA brass with different sized bushings. To help with minimizing work hardening of the brass.
 
This is new to me "shoulder bump neck size" is that possible?
Yes, and it is critical to keep the shoulder bumped back a gnats hair if you are running tight necked chambers and hot loads. The adjustment for this changes as your brass goes from new/soft to work hardened as it gets multiple firings on it.
 
My solution is to have Hornady Custom Die made for a Gun. They also offer hydrallic form die that will expand a case so you don't have to fire form them.Just call them and ask about your options. I think a 3 die custom match grade set is like 185 dollars and you furnish them three fired cartridges from that single gun. Just an option.
 
SteveW-II said:
Not wishing to hijack my own thread, but how do you measure the amount of shoulder 'bump' ? A RCBS cartridge micrometer ?

An RCBS micrometer will work. I use a Redding Instant Indicator/Bullet Comparator to measure headspace so that I know how much to bump the shoulder back. The link has some good information regardless of what you buy/use.

:)
 
Can anyone address the 'run out' question ?

> When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?
 
Steve, I don't measure run out of my cases so I can't help you with that one. I do roll loaded rounds along the bench on occasion to see if the bullet "wobbles" but that's about it. I should probably consider Holland's Concentricity Gauge but I'm not sure if it's worth it yet. I don't see any other offerings from Redding, Hornady, RCBS etc.

:)
 
Thank you Sir.

I measure my 'run out' with a Vee block and dial indicator on the shank of the bullet close to the case, then rotate the round in the Vee block while keeping an eye on the dial indicator.. You can buy commercial setups from RCBS and others.

Clearly, I am trying to seat the bullet as close to the centre line of the brass as possible, but this is dictated by the neck. I.E. how concentric the neck is to the center line. The Lee Collet die gets me about 4 thou of 'run out'. I am hoping that a bushing neck sized will get me less. If not, then I will stay with the Collet die I guess.

Commercial Concentricity Gages :

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=292524
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=486557
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955
 
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SteveW-II said:
I measure my 'run out' with a Vee block and dial indicator on the shank of the bullet close to the case, then rotate the round in the Vee block while keeping an eye on the dial indicator.. You can buy commercial setups from RCBS and others.

Steve, I measured 10 loaded .300 Win Mag rounds today using a "V" block and a very precise dial indicator that our machinist set up for me. I don't know if this will help you but the maximum runout was under +/- 0.001". Most of the rounds were +/- 0.0005" which amazed me. First off, these W-W Super cases have been fired twice in a Krieger barrel/chamber, neck-sized three times, once when they were new but the neck was on the small side so the bushing didn't do much. They were sized two more times, once after each firing and they were sized down to 0.332". I honestly can't say if the Redding neck-sizing die is responsible for the negligible runout or if it's the chamber and the number of times that the cases have been fired. I don't think that W-W Super cases are thought of as being high end. I recently bought 200 Norma cases in .300 Win Mag and .300 WSM so I'll try to make some before/after measurements with those to see if the case neck's concentricity improves/changes after each firing.

I hope this helps.

:)
 
SteveW-II, You should do a search at http://www.benchrest.com/forums/index.php? your .004" run out you now have is not that all uncommon and may have no effect on accuracy if what i read online is true. The bushing dies work best on rifles with tight neck chambers. This is because the bushing has to size the neck very little. Unlike a factory chamber where the bushing must size down .008" and sometimes more. This is where they say runout happens. Go to the Redding site and read all of that info. http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/techline.html If you going to shoot 1000 yds, then maybe i would worry about a few .001" 's runout. Then custom benchrest dies are needed, they are not made by Redding, RCBS, types, these are just factory dies. I do not check runout, and my old 40x rifle would not know the difference IMO. Hope this helps.
 
243winxb said:
The bushing dies work best on rifles with tight neck chambers. This is because the bushing has to size the neck very little. Unlike a factory chamber where the bushing must size down .008" and sometimes more. This is where they say runout happens.

Steve, the OD of the necks of cases fired in my Krieger barrel are 0.340". The OD of the neck with a seated A-MAX is 0.335". Ideally I like to size the OD of the neck down to 0.333" but as USSR pointed out, if you size more than 0.005" in one step the end result is 0.001" UNDER the bushing size. I've been sizing in one step with a 0.333" bushing so the actual change in OD is 0.008" but my case necks have virtually zero runout. If this is where runout is supposed to occur then I'm either lucky or the equipment that I use is producing good results. I don't know what all of this means or how it affects anything. I'm certainly not a benchrest shooter. My interest is the practical application of firearms so 0.5MOA is all I'm after, but maybe you'll find this information useful.

:)
 
"shoulder bump neck size"

Posted Feb 16, 8:14 PM
I e-mailed Forster and asked


quote:
Question

Does your bushing bump die resize the case body as well? Your website clearly states that it resizes all or part of the neck and will push the shoulder back but it does not say it resizes the case body.

Thanks, you make a great product.




and they answered


quote:
Thank you for the inquiry regarding the Bushing Bump Neck Sizing die.



This die does not size the case body. It sizes the neck and the shoulder of the case in one step.



We appreciate your continued interest in our products. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.



Regards,



Dee

Foster Products




So now the question is when it pushes the shoulder back and the case body is not in rigid support, where does that brass go?

_______________________________________
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/5281012301 Someone explain to me how you could push the shoulder back with out supporting the body, and still have the round chamber?? This can only be done in a FLRS Redding type S bushing die. IMO. NOT in a neck size only die.
 
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Redding Body Die FYI

I dug out a set of instructions that come with the Redding Body Die. I will retype word for word what it says:


quote:

INTRODUCTION
Body dies are designed to full length resize your cartidge case and correctly bump the shoulder position for proper chamber fit without disturbing the neck diameter. Body dies have no internal parts and are intended to recondition cases which have become difficult to chamber from repeated firing and neck sizing.

NOTE: BODY DIES ARE NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED TO BE USED FOR RESIZING LOADED AMMUNITION

PREPARATION
All Redding dies are protected in storage and shipment by a rust preventative film which must be removed before use. Clean the inside of the die with a good grade of bore solvent and wipe thoroughly with a clean dry patch.

Your body die will be used in a manner similar to that of a regular full length sizing die, thus proper lubrication is a must. Visually inspect and clean your cases prior to lubrication. Use only a good grade of case lube such as REDDING Case Lube and follow the directions on the package.

ADJUSTMENT
Body dies are designed with internal dimensions identical to full length resizing dies with the exception of the neck diameter which approximates your chamber size.

Under normal circumstances the body die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder. If your chamber is known to be non-standard and has excessive headspace, you should follow the recommended method for adjusting resizing dies for "wildcat" calibers to insure proper resizing and headspace. This information is covered in the instructions for our regular die sets.


Now this clearly says that body dies resize the case body just like FL dies.
This info came from the above link also. I know this to be true about the body die.
 
SteveW-II said:
Do they all bump the shoulder back a little when sizing the neck without sizing the rest of the case ?

The whole purpose of using a neck sizing die is that they DON'T touch the shoulder or body of the case. None of my Redding neck sizing dies touch the shoulder. I have Redding body dies to bump the shoulder back if/when needed.


243winxb, I only buy Redding dies these days (along with the occasional Lee crimp die), but as for Foster's neck sizing/shoulder bump die, it does sound like it'd be difficult to size the neck and bump the shoulder back WITHOUT upsetting the body of the case.

:)
 
it does sound like it'd be difficult to size the neck and bump the shoulder back WITHOUT upsetting the body of the case.
Those dies are designed to make contact with the body without sizing it. This contact keeps it from moving when the shoulder is bumped back. Remember, the shoulder is getting bumped back only 1 or 2 thousandths. :)
 
Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die

The die is adjusted the same as any FLRS die.
4.0 CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading
press or Forster’s Co-Ax® Reloading Press so that it
makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its
uppermost position.
This leaves no adjustment on how much the shoulder is bumped. If the bushing is remover it becomes a body die that can maintain proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory.
5.2 Shoulder Bump Only (See Fig. 4.)
By removing the neck bushing, the Bushing Bump Die may be
used to bump the shoulder without changing the case neck
diameter. This action maintains proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory.
I know what the email said from Forster (DEE), but i dont buy it. :banghead:http://www.forsterproducts.com/Media/Instructions%20for%20Dies/Bushing%20Bump%20Sizing%20Die%20DIE-0008.pdf
6.0 OPTIONAL ADDITION FOR NECK EXPANSION
Although the Bushing Bump Die is designed for prepared
cartridges that normally do not require an expander ball, Forster
Expander Balls (E-10) may be ordered separately (See Section
8.0) and installed on the Spindle (D-10). This step may be
desirable when using commercial brass “as is” or to correct
damaged case mouths ejected from semi-automatic rifles.
The brass should be neck turned if not using an expander.
Dee referred your query to me and here is ,hopefully, the answer to your concern. Your question is important to us. You mentioned that you "were leery of creating a bulge in your case body". Answer: The body of the Bushing Bump die is designed to push the shoulder of the rifle case back only .001" or .002". This is just enough to support the case and to keep the body of the case in good alignment while the neck of the case is being squeezed down to a smaller dimension. If one were to try to push the shoulder back much more than .002" you may develop a problem with case "bulge". Best regards and good shooting, Bob Ruch @ Forster Products Inc.
In Conclusion, the Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die will neck size and bump the shoulder as advertised, but care must me taken so that the case body does not bulge. The die would have to be set as if one was using the method of “partial full-length resizing”. To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies.
 
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