Bushing sizing dies : Redding, Forster, Hornady..

[flashhole]

My belief is you will get less runout with a better seating die. I like the Forster Ultraseat die the best but their benchrest seat die is the same sliding sleeve assembly only without the micrometer adjust. The Redding Competition seat die, another sliding sleeve design, is excellent as well. A poor mans compromise this the Hornady New Dimension. The tolerances aren't quite what the Forster and Redding are but you pay less.

Outside neck turning to make them all consistent thickness will help too and you can use the same neck sizing dies with better results.

 

[Walkalong]

Quotes found here and there are fine. Real world experience is quite different.

Full length dies are just that. They size the whole case. They can be adjusted to increase case life by not pushing the shoulder any further than needed in your gun.

Neck sizing dies are just that. They size the neck only. The bushing type neck dies are obviously more versatile.

Body dies are made to size the body of the case without sizing the neck. They expect you to do that in a separate step. They are made for the folks who are not bumping the shoulder back and are neck sizing only. Those cases will eventually get hard to chamber and the shoulder must be bumped back. (This is not the better way to do it in my opinion. Bumping the shoulder back a thou or so every time as you size the neck while supporting the body is the way to go as far as pure accuracy goes.)

If the Forster die will bump the shoulder properly while sizing the neck it is machined to lightly contact the case sides or it won't work. Since they make them for everyday rifles the tolerances in stock rifle chambers would be to great for it to be the best way to go.

My "bump die" (that accepts carbide neck bushings) was cut with the finishing reamer that cut one of my old Bench gun barrels chamber. They are all so close it still works for the two barrels I have now. It contacts the case body but will not size it enough to measure. It has to be constantly adjusted to match the "springyness" of the brass as the brass ages. When you are trying to bump .001 every time it is critical to check it every time and adjust as needed. This is a pain, but necessary, or you will end up with brass that is hard to chamber and then hard to get out. You don't have time in a match for that, period. (7 minutes to shoot 5 on the record and only 15 to 20 loaded rounds - They must work.)

Maybe the Highpower guys who bring lots of loaded ammo can afford a couple they have to put aside. The bump them back when only when they get tough may work for them. I don't know though. I would have to ask USSR or Slamfire, someone who shoots that game. It is different than Benchrest. We are after extreme accuracy at 100 & 200 yards, and that's it.

Those that want to load match ammo need to go to a rifle competition and see what "Match accuracy" really is. Those guys will help you obtain it, but be ready to get your feelings hurt about your rifle/ammo/etc. I thought I had a couple of accurate rifles (and they were) until I went to a Benchrest demonstration near me in Greenville Al.

Wow I had to have one of those rifles. I was hooked big time.

 

[USSR]

Anthony,

I started out just using my Redding Competition necksizing die, and only using the body die after 3 or 4 reloads to bump the shoulder back. Then, I decided to use the body die every time in conjunction with the necksizing die for consistency reasons. So, essentially, I am doing FL resizing in two distinct operations. I am intrigued by the Forster bump die, but it is my understanding that Forster uses different bushings than Redding, and I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.

Don

 

[MCMXI]

Don, I'm on my third loading (neck size only) for some .300 Win Mag cases (Winchester W-W Super) and the bolt closes very easily still so I'm not going to bump the shoulders back until it becomes a problem ... and hopefully never. My understanding is that the shoulder moves forward during each firing until it can't move forward any more. If the bolt face and chamber are true and the bolt lugs are true, then wouldn't the shoulder get to the point where it couldn't move any further forward and it should be a 0.001" or maybe 0.0005" or so shorter than bolt face to shoulder (datum) dimension. I've noticed on rifles that haven't had the actions trued and/or that have mass produced chambers, all kinds of hell breaks loose in terms of headspacing, but so far, with the Kreiger barrels/chambers and trued actions, I'm seeing much more consistent results in terms of case dimensions.

and I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.

Me too!! I have that little green Redding box for bushing storage and it's full with .30 cal and .223 cal TiN bushings!

 

[243winxb]

Then, I decided to use the body die every time in conjunction with the necksizing die for consistency reasons.

This is why i bought the Redding Type-S FLRS Bushing Die, it does it all in one operation. In Conclusion, the Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die will neck size and bump the shoulder as advertised, but care must me taken so that the case body does not bulge. The die would have to be set as if one was using the method of “partial full-length resizing”. To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5350106&postcount=25

 

[Walkalong]

I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.

You ought to price the carbide ones, but they sure are smooth.

 

[USSR]

To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies.

The first thing I did when I received my Redding Competition dies was remove the decapping pin and expander ball. I would NEVER pull a nasty expander ball thru my nicely resized necks. The thing I like about sizing the necks and body/shoulder in two separate operations is, I can vary the amount of the neck that I resize, without having it impact the amount I am bumping the shoulder back. All my tactical rifles are set up for 1000 yard F Class shooting, and I have been extremely pleased with ammo produced with Redding micrometer dies.

Don

 

[MCMXI]

The first thing I did when I received my Redding Competition dies was remove the decapping pin and expander ball. I would NEVER pull a nasty expander ball thru my nicely resized necks.

Redding Competition neck sizing dies don't have expander ball decapping pins ... it would defeat the whole purpose of a NECK sizing die! The decapping pins that come with their Competition dies are the straight variety with the OD of the shaft being CONSIDERABLY less than the ID of the case neck. I have five complete sets in five different calibers and none of them have an expander ball decapping pin.

 

[243winxb]

I can vary the amount of the neck that I resize,

This can be done with Redding type-S flrs bushing dies. Also you have the choice of using an expander/decapper for factory brass or if brass has been neck turned, just the decapper.

 

[USSR]

1858,

That's what happens when I post from work and don't have access to my reloading equipment. They are indeed just decapping pins, sans expander balls. I agree, expander balls with bushing dies don't make much sense, but the FL bushing dies that Redding sells do come with them. In any case (no pun intended), all my decapping is done with a Lyman Universal Decapping die.

Don

 

[plinky]

Somehow I lost track of this thread for a few days and missed some good info. For better or worse, I just ordered the Forster bushing/bump dies for a couple of rifles. It's my first venture into bushing dies but hopefully they'll work for my purposes.

Seems like the most imprecise step in reloading is running the expander through the neck. The case is totally unsupported at this point and depending on the qualities of the brass, the neck could easily be pulled crooked. So ANY die that avoids the expanding step is a step forward IMHO.

It seems like the slight "bump" should be easy enough to reduce or remove, making this die a standard neck die with the adjustability of bushings. The bump may be a good thing though. The Redding dies with their floating chamber are probably better but more expensive. The Forsters are available with a set of three bushings at a good price. That's what I went with. I tried to get the next step smaller bushing to go with each die but one was special order.

Should be interesting.

 

[Walkalong]

I have some older Forster rifle dies (not bushing style) and they work great. I am sure their new stuff is quality as well. They were probably losing sales to Redding by not having bushing style dies, so they started making them as well.

 

[USSR]

Seems like the most imprecise step in reloading is running the expander through the neck. The case is totally unsupported at this point and depending on the qualities of the brass, the neck could easily be pulled crooked.

Exactly. We are doing all this precision work, and then we haphazardly pull this ball thru the neck, that we intentionally reduced in size too much (thereby working the neck more than necessary), just so we could pull this ball thru and potentially undo all our precision work.

Don

 

[243winxb]

Bushing Dies & Expander Ball

The expander does have a use when paired with bushing dies.IMO. Lets say you don't want to outside neck turn. And you want to use new cheap brass. The neck wall thickness of the brass may vari .002" or more. You don't want to use the bullet as your expander. With the proper bushing selection you will not over work the brass or pull the neck off center of the case. This combining of bushing and expanded are a better choice than a standard die that may size the neck down more than needed by as much as .010" or more,depending on the neck thickness. The nice part of using the Redding FLRS Type-S bushing die is you can do both, your choice. The FLRS die holds the case in alignment while the floating bushing finds its center on the case neck. If you only size half of the neck, the unsized part of the neck will center the round in the chamber. This is good for accuracy. All good for factory guns or custom barrels. , not so for full blown bench rest rifles. Bench rest guns do not use an expander as there brass is neck turned.

 

[Walkalong]

If you only size half of the neck, the unsized part of the neck will center the round in the chamber. This is good for accuracy. All good for factory guns or custom barrels, not so for full blown bench rest rifles.

We partially size the neck too, for just that reason. Despite our close tolerances every little bit helps.

When you use an expander ball the ID is usually pretty close, affected mostly by how springy the necks are. The neck wall thicknesses show on the OD

When you use a bushing they can vary for all that reason PLUS the differenes in neck thickneses. It pushes all the brass in so most of the varience is on the ID instead of the outside like using an expander ball.

Neck bushings are most useful with brass that has extremely tight tolerances and very even neck wall thickness from case to case, or brass where the necks have been reamed or turned (or both).

All that is best when using a tight necked chamber.

Standard factory rifles with their generous sloppy chambers don't benefit nearly as much from using bushing dies.

The whole idea is to get CONSISTENT neck tension. Brass with uneven neck wall thickness and necks that vary from cases to case make this tougher with bushing dies.

It's kind of like putting a race car engine in a stock car with out beefing up the drive train to handle the power. When you change one thing it affects others, and they have to be changed as well to get the potential benefit.

Clear as mud yet?

 

[SteveW-II]

> Clear as mud yet?

It's all good stuff. My gun has a standard chamber, so I am holding off from buying any bushing dies until I shoot my next set of reloads and can measure the outside diameter of the neck of fired brass. From what I have read so far, I may not see any benefit from the bushing dies unless I have a tighter chamber.

I am now beginning to understand that a tighter chamber doesn't mean that a factory round will be more precisely aligned, it means that the fired brass will not need so much re-sizing and therefor has the potential to be reloaded straighter that brass from a larger chamber.

 

[243winxb]

SteveW-II Measure the outside diameter (OD) of 3 fired brass, number them 1, 2, and 3 . Then remove the expander from your FLRS die. Size your 3 brass and Measure the OD. This will tell you how much your die is sizing. If its more than .006" from a loaded round OD (your ammo,not saami), you may want to consider sending 3 fired cases to the die maker and have them hone the neck area of the die so it does not size as much. This is a great cost effect method and can work well. A problem can arise if the next lot of brass has very thin neck wall diameter, it would not hold the bullet tight. In 243win a saami neck dia. of a loaded round is .276", a fired case should not be more than .278" OD. If a sized case OD without using an expander is under .266" the die is sizing to much. You will find that different lots of brass have different neck wall thickness. Most all loaded rounds will not measure what saami lists as the loaded neck OD because of thin neck walls.

 

[SteveW-II]

> have them hone the neck area of the die so it does not size as much

Thanks for the suggestion. I didn't know that was offered as a service.

If I did that, I would get the same result as a full length sizing die, with a neck bushing. Is that right ?

 

[243winxb]

If I did that, I would get the same result as a full length sizing die, with a neck bushing. Is that right ?

You would maybe work the brass neck less with bushings. You would have more control with a bushing. But in a factory chambered rifle, you would not know till you tried both methods. Remember the bushing can just size half of the neck. The unsized part centers the round in the chamber. The honed neck can be almost as accurate if you control your shoulder bump when flrs. All guns are different, you dont know till you try.