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Buying a EAA Witness, questions about +P ammo and laser sight

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by saturno_v, Dec 27, 2007.

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  1. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Hello Folks


    I'm going to buy a EAA witness full size pistol (I love the look of the gun) in 45 ACP caliber.
    I read the manual and it says that you should not fire +P ammunitionwith it but I read in other forums and even in a gun magazine review that such ammo have been fired in this gun.
    What is your take on this?? It is safe or better not doing it?? I mean if I cannot fire the +P ammo I should think twice before to buy.....gosh even the Hi-Point guns are rated safe for +P!!!
    I searched the net about this but I could not find anything.

    Last question is how can I install a laser/light combo in the gun without rail??
    There is some reliable clam-on system in the trigger guard or receiver???
    If I can I would like to avond drilling holes in the gun.

    Thank you very much in advance for your advice!!!

    Regards
     
  2. Lucky Strike

    Lucky Strike Member

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    I plan on buying a Witness for my first .45

    Had a chance to shoot one at the range and it was great.

    Keep us informed on how you like it after you get it.
     
  3. Texastbird

    Texastbird Member

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    My son has one and it seems very robust. All he has shot is the usual factory ammo and some of my reloads that are fairly intense but not +P. I don't see why it wouldn't handle some +Ps. You might need a heavier recoil spring than the factory one though.
     
  4. WVMountainBoy

    WVMountainBoy Member

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    I'm going to error on the side of caution here, if the manual says "Don't use +P ammo" than don't use +P ammo. While I'm sure some of us are in fact engineers and/or quite qualified to assertane the limits of our weapons, the simple fact is that the manual says don't and if you do, you've made the warranty void at the very least.
     
  5. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    Ussually the benefits of +p ammo are outweighed by the increased recoil and muzzle flash.

    Not sure what your purposes are for wanting it to fire +p ammo but the witness is said to be a very good weapon, I'm thinking that if you upped the recoil spring a bit it would be just fine.
     
  6. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I just don't want to have to look at the spec of the ammo to make sure if is +P or not.
    Furthermore, some manufacturers produce ammo that are in fact +P without marking it clearly.
    If I have a certain caliber gun I want to make sure that I can feed it anything on the market with that caliber designation without the need to look further risking to damage the gun, void the warranty or get injuries (I'm not a relaoader)
    I researched the topic a bit and usually +P ammo should be loaded well below the level of a proof round used for testing a modern gun in that particular caliber....usually ammo marked +P are old cartridges (9 mm, 38 special and 45 ACP) that can be loaded at higher pressure for more modern guns....the Witness should be a modern gun I guess... ;-)
    If the manufacturer put in the very first page a big warning sign that says "do not use +P ammo or high velocity high pressure ammunition factory or hand-loaded" (as EAA does) that doesn't inspire me a lot of confidence in the construction of the gun.
    What "high velocity high pressure" really means anyway?? I have to look at the ballistic of every ammo brand I'm buying and call EAA to make sure is safe to shoot???...frankly seems a bit ridiculous.....As I said in my previous post even the Hi-Point (theoretically junk guns) are rated for +P rounds and are warranted for life!!!

    Well I didn't buy the gun yet....probably I will opt for a Glock 20 10 mm auto and an interchangeable barrel to shoot the more common (and modern) 40 S&W.... The 45 ACP is an old round anyway....
    Too bad because I like the look of the Witness a lot but that warning sign in the manual make me nervous and it is too vague in terms....
     
  7. DENALI

    DENALI member

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    Why are you wasting your time in asking us questions you've so cleverly answerd already...
     
  8. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I asked because I hoped someone could tell me if that warning sign in the manual was just some sort of "legalese" you could just ignore....Iwas hoping to find someone that had experience in +P ammo in this gun....

    The reason I care about the +P ammo give me a little bit of extra power when I treck in the woods...but at this point probably a 10 mm auto is a better choice altogether....
     
  9. Pete409

    Pete409 Member

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    Personally, if I liked the looks and feel of the gun, I would buy it in spite of the "No +P" warning. I have the same gun (actually a Tanfoglio TZ75) in 9mm and I shoot anything I want in it. I don't particularly seek out +P to purchase and shoot, but I'll shoot it if I have it.

    I doubt that a few rounds of +P ammo is going to harm the pistol. I just wouldn't feed it a steady diet of +P ammo.
     
  10. loop

    loop Member

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    Just bought another Tanfoglio .45 yesterday.
    It is a very robust gun based on the design of the cz 75.
    The same slide that houses the 45 barrel is used for the 10mm, 40 S&W, 38 super, 41 ae and 9X19.
    There are only about 2,000 cpu difference in .45 +P and standard .45 loads. The reason the +P designation is used is there are .45s out there that were made in the early 1900s. Some of them can't handle higher pressure.
    To cover themselves, ammo makers place the +P designation on slightly hotter ammo.
    The importer of Tanfoglios is European American Arms under the label EAA Witness. I suspect they print a warning as part of the "cover your ass" syndrome.
    I feed my Tanfoglio .45s whatever is handy, never had an issue and don't expect one.
    One of the biggest advantages to the Tanfoglio in .45 is that to have a 10mm all you do is get the conversion kit. It consists of a slide, complete with all workings including the 10mm barrel, and a magazine. To convert that to .40 S&W you just buy a barrel and suitable recoil spring.
    If you want to go to 9mm or .38 super you buy the .38 super kit and the 9mm barrel and spring.
    You can also get a .22 lr conversion kit for the gun.
    It is the most versatile platform on the market.
    Also, as you know, one sweet shooter. I actually prefer my Tanfoglio to my Kimbers and Sigs (that's why I just bought another one).
    Porting kits that include a barrel and new front end are also available very inexpensively in most calibers.
    Crimson Trace makes a laser grip that will fit the Tanfoglio.
    Don't know anything about flashlight mounts. Don't believe in them. I use a Surefire with the Harries technique and find it very effective.
    My spare mag pouch also holds a Surefire.
     
  11. loop

    loop Member

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    Forgot to mention...
    2007 EAA Witness carry models come with an accessory rail. If the one you are looking at does not have a rail on the underside of the frame it is an early 2007 or older.
     
  12. jwxspoon

    jwxspoon Member

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    I've got a Witness P Compact in .45

    Great little gun, very reliable. I feel it's a little too large for concealed carry, and I prefer my XD45 as a nightstand gun because of the greater ammo capacity. For the $$, the Witness is a great pistol though, very well made.

    jw
     
  13. jfh

    jfh Member

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    I've got two Witnesses now; I've had a SA P9C/.40 subcompact as well.

    The Witness I bought in .45ACP originally now also has a 10mm top end, and I shoot both calibres from that frame. It works great--but the factory switch-top 10mm assembly is not match-grade.

    I wouldn't worry about .45ACP+P loads in this pistol. However, my inclination is to build the loads that hit the accuracy 'sweet spot,' and those tend to be lower in the power range.

    Loops comprehensive reply three post prior really pretty well covers the issues and benefits of the EAA Witness. I suspect the same holds true for the 'original' CZ models as well.

    Overall, I don't think there is a better quality pistol for the money.

    Jim H.
     
  14. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Well guys you conviced me to give at least a second look..

    X Loop

    The steel full size pistol (the kind I like) still does not have the accessory rail, you can look at their web site (www.eaacorp.com). Only the polymer models have it.
    The steel model in the web site are still listed as 2005 models. I even checked the Tanfoglio Italian web site (I'm originally from Italy, naturalized American ;-) and the steel frame models have no rail yet.
    I talked with the EAA gunsmith and they still do not have a full size Polymer model that can accept a 10 mm kit.
    The reason why I like the Witness (as many of you I suspect) is the caliber portability (especially the 10 mm auto)
    The eaa folks told me that maybe next year they should have fulL size steel models with a rail, but they could not tell me exactly when.

    Loop thanks for suggesting the laser grip I will look into that.
    I'm interested in a light/laser combo that I can install in the Witness full size steel without drilling holes in the gun (I could install an after market rail in the receiver in that way)
    Any of you know of a reliable product that can be clamped on in the trigger guard or other solutions that do not involve drilling holes??
    If I find a solution, I'm pretty much sold on the Witness!!
    The reason I like the laser/light combo is in case of a home assault where your light has been cut out...I know it sounds paranoid but you never know these days...

    I had a look at some of the ballistics for their 10 mm auto at the Double Tap web site (www.doubletapammo.com), very impressive (some loads are just a bit below 800 ft/lb out of a 4.5 in barrel!!! )
    I do a lot of hiking and that loads can make for a decent bad critter repellant (I hope never to make such encounter anyway)
     
  15. loop

    loop Member

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    Guess I spoke too soon about the rails...
    I was looking for a compact poly and the new ones have the rail. I had to find an older model to get one w/o the rails as is my preference.
    Just assumed the steel ones had them too, but didn't look at any steel frames...
    Beamshot makes an accessory rail that mounts to the trigger guard. Its kind of a slick setup. Check this Web page: http://www.beamshot.com/mounts_ut1_universal_trigger_guard_mounts.html
    You could probably find a laser/tac-light combo that would mount on it.
    Surefire has an excellent article on flashlight use and technique on its site: http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00
    I'm a little old fashioned and have old habits as well so I am an adherent of the Harries technique.
    However, I also use the Marine Corps technique sometimes.
    I'm not a big fan of mounted flashlights except on long guns. Got a sweet rig on a Mossberg pump. The center of the beam is where the buckshot goes. I use it at night on our local predators, primarily coyotes and mountain lions, when they try to get at our livestock.
    The 10 slide thing is kind of odd, the P Carry is available in 10, but the P Compact and the full size P are not.
    So I assume that if you bought a P Carry in 10 you could get a .45 slide for it...
    Ah well...
    Good luck, hope you're happy with whatever you end up getting.
     
  16. Macmac

    Macmac Member

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    I've got a Witness P Compact in .45 as well apx date 01. So far I have not had any problem ever with it, nada... On the other hand it won't chamber flat wad cutters,,, somehow I don't consider that a problem.

    In my first testings, I use a wide variety of ammo all mixed in the mag. There was steel cases, soft lead round nose, hollow points, aluminum bullets, just any old stuff that I had on hand to see what would jam it. I even ran semi wad cutters in it, and they fed 100%.

    Lights on a home defence pistol are something I have no desire to ever do. maybe a shot gun, but never a pistol.

    I know my house, and would make it dark on purpose. I see no advantage to giving my possition away to thugs...

    To me lights are for those who don't know where they are first hand, like police who need to ID more than I do.
     
  17. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    not a witness, but i've got a CZ 97B, it's wondiferous! but i want a compact witness. i'm pretty sure most manufacturers advise against +P ammo, regardless of whether or not the pistol can take it. go with the witness, you'll love it.
     
  18. 32 Magnum

    32 Magnum Member

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    I own a compact Wonder finish .40S&W, a compact P .45, a Nickel Steel (FAB) 9mm and a full size Wonder .45ACP. All are superbly accurate and reliable - after break-in with about 250 to 300 rounds and feed ramp polishing.
    Only problems I had were early on failures to feed with the .40 and full size .45, which were corrected by the polishing and break-in. Replaced the recoil spring on the 9mm with a slightly heavier (14 lb, IIRC). The extractor claw on the .40 broke off while using Wolf steel cased ammo - replaced easily and part was inexpensive from EAA. Excellent, under rated pistols. I've shot some of my best groups ever with the full-size .45 (10 rounds through one hole just slightly larger than 3/4" at 25 FEET.) You can't go wrong for the price!
     
  19. wally

    wally Member

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    The EAA Witness are good guns for the money, especially if you get good mags. No problems with .45ACP since you can buy Mec-Gars for ~$19 but I've had to work on most of my 10mm mags to get them feeding and locking back. Use the search, I've posted the details not too long ago.

    I don't recommend the "large frame" guns (that takes the 10mm, .45ACP, & .38Super conversions) in 9mm or .40S&W calibers because the mags are too long for the round and have trouble maintaining control of the rounds leading to feed failures, especially with full house loads unless you reload "long" and set the OAL to about what would be right for a 10mm round. If you want a 9mm or .40S&W get the CZ the EAA was inspired by instead.

    IMHO the steel frames are significantly better than the polymer frames which seem to flex a bit with full house loads causing premature slide lock.

    Unless you really plan to get one of the conversion kits, hold out for the Witness Elite Match, you give up the DA option with the trigger (since it lacks a decocker, no great loss IMHO) but get a much better SAO trigger, better adjustable sights and much better fit for only ~$150 more. They can be hard to find but are worth looking and waiting for.

    --wally.
     
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