SoCalShooter
Member
This one takes effect July 1. Best thing in my opinion is to not stop sending guns to california, let them know their laws are not going to deter us and then get them out of office in the next election and get the laws repealed.
California goverment must be taught
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Robert Hairless
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I wouldn't know if you were stupid and obnoxious to say such things to people from whom you ask help. If it works for you and makes you happy, go for it. I'm just one of the little old "rednecks." Good luck on getting other people to fight for you. Maybe you're just not insulting them enough.
If any of you think that an "arms embargo" would somehow deny anyone but your normal law-abiding CA citizen from obtaining firearms and ammunition, you are likely to be very mistaken.
As usual, the politicians, police, and criminals will all have ways of easily getting what they want, while the anti-gunners who vote for these asinine politicians and laws will be delighted to see the supply of guns into CA choked off by its source.
But, hey, what does that little detail matter when you can feel good about sticking it to the "Californians", even if it's really just only those who actually still care about gun ownership.
As usual, the politicians, police, and criminals will all have ways of easily getting what they want, while the anti-gunners who vote for these asinine politicians and laws will be delighted to see the supply of guns into CA choked off by its source.
But, hey, what does that little detail matter when you can feel good about sticking it to the "Californians", even if it's really just only those who actually still care about gun ownership.
Animal Mother
Member
With Heller coming down the pipe, it makes sense to begin to organize a Second Amendment civil rights march on Sacramento and to continue to do so until:
A) The legislators recognize the right.
B) The gov't oversteps its bounds in surpressing the protest, thereby leading to increased public sympathy for the protestors, thereby making further restrictions politically untenable.
C) You are able to educate the public that you don't fit the media stereotypes of gunowners, thereby making further restrictions politically untenable.
Protesting works. Look at the progress made with respect to campus CCW and CCW in general.
Heller has the potential to be a game changer for CA. Especially if it is incorporated into the 14th. This may not happen until after the Chicago ban is challenged, but think of how big the rallies could be by then. Organize monthly, bi-monthly, or quarterly marches. Organize, educate, and take action.
A) The legislators recognize the right.
B) The gov't oversteps its bounds in surpressing the protest, thereby leading to increased public sympathy for the protestors, thereby making further restrictions politically untenable.
C) You are able to educate the public that you don't fit the media stereotypes of gunowners, thereby making further restrictions politically untenable.
Protesting works. Look at the progress made with respect to campus CCW and CCW in general.
Heller has the potential to be a game changer for CA. Especially if it is incorporated into the 14th. This may not happen until after the Chicago ban is challenged, but think of how big the rallies could be by then. Organize monthly, bi-monthly, or quarterly marches. Organize, educate, and take action.
packnrat
Member
well the anti's win this one.
that is the reason for the law, to make you stop doing work with the people here in ca.:banghead:
as for leo's they allready have a way to get said work done here in ca, and please do not think a co will stop makeing money selling guns to the cops.
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that is the reason for the law, to make you stop doing work with the people here in ca.:banghead:
as for leo's they allready have a way to get said work done here in ca, and please do not think a co will stop makeing money selling guns to the cops.
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.38 Special
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Dodge. And I'm not asking for help. I'm asking for people to quit with the "California's gun laws are the fault of California gun owners" bit. It's obnoxious, insulting, and untrue.
And BTW, I didn't call you a redneck. You just seized on the word and made it yours.
When you have worked inside of the firearms industry (and I have) you soon come to understand that decisions are not made on the basis of political or "gun rights" issues, but $$$$$$$...
There are exceptions of course, but when it comes to the bottom line (which is indeed the bottom line) firearm manufacturers, distributors and dealers are in the business of making and selling product, and making a profit while doing so.
They will continue to sell guns in California, and other restrictive states until the restrictions and requirements make it unprofitable to do so. At that point they will stop.
On this basis a small retailer may abandon doing business in California (or wherever) because the additional hassle isn’t worth it, because whatever business they do is limited. Larger distributors and manufacturers may absorb the additional cost, but only up to a certain point.
This point hasn’t been reached yet, but it may happen in the not distance future. At the present time some manufacturers are limiting the number of models they choose to qualify on California’s “can buy” list. I expect this trend will continue.
Manufacturers are also aware that if they incorporate certain features required by California statutes, sales in other states may be negatively impacted if the features are unpopular with buyers in those states. At some point, when they’re overall profits are effected in a downward direction far enough, they will abandon the California market.
But not until then.
Because it’s all about $$$$$$$$$.
There are exceptions of course, but when it comes to the bottom line (which is indeed the bottom line) firearm manufacturers, distributors and dealers are in the business of making and selling product, and making a profit while doing so.
They will continue to sell guns in California, and other restrictive states until the restrictions and requirements make it unprofitable to do so. At that point they will stop.
On this basis a small retailer may abandon doing business in California (or wherever) because the additional hassle isn’t worth it, because whatever business they do is limited. Larger distributors and manufacturers may absorb the additional cost, but only up to a certain point.
This point hasn’t been reached yet, but it may happen in the not distance future. At the present time some manufacturers are limiting the number of models they choose to qualify on California’s “can buy” list. I expect this trend will continue.
Manufacturers are also aware that if they incorporate certain features required by California statutes, sales in other states may be negatively impacted if the features are unpopular with buyers in those states. At some point, when they’re overall profits are effected in a downward direction far enough, they will abandon the California market.
But not until then.
Because it’s all about $$$$$$$$$.
billwiese
Member
Old Fuff said:
Yup. This new law appears to have had the support of CAFR (Calif Assn of Firearms Retailers) and CRPA due to their shared lobbyist-idiot, Kathy Lynch.
[Yes, that appellation for Kathy is not 'high road'. But she has been the enabler of borderline CA gun laws that large dealer chains actually like -because it reduces competition. She/her orgs help run SB15 'approved handgun list' thru in spite of NRA opposition - she paired up with Robert Ricker who lobbied for SASS short-term to get the precious single-action exemption.]
What happens in CA is that in the past we'd have fence-sititing legislators that would not vote anti-gun if enough opposition existed. But when they see NRA against something but CRPA+CAFR+SASS lobbyists for something, they assume the opposition is split and they can vote antigun.
Big CA chain dealers LIKE some of these laws. You won't see Turner's, for example, complaining much about a mail-order ammo ban: they think it's in their best interests for folks not to buy skids of milsurp 308 and instead buy it from Turner's at $15+/box (or whatever it is)
Old Fuff said:
Sometimes. Actually the smaller FFLs have been a boon to CA and go the extra mile. It was a host of smaller FFLs that helped move 'off-list' AR receivers into CA at end of 2005/early 2006, while larger ones were cowed with legally-unsustainable letters from CA DOJ (in combination with poor reading ability). CA gunnies are loyal and threw a lotta biz their way afterward and quite a few of these businesses grew nicely.
CA gunnies support these dealers, and if there's a bit extra charge for CA paperwork, we understand paying a tad more for that cost.
Old Fuff said:
Yeah. A big part of the problem is some of these mfgrs (esp Springfield Armory) change SKUs everytime they sneeze - even when that SKU change reflects just grips/sights/coating changes. There appear to be alternate ways of doing this that meet CA law and allow such variations to be sold as one item (with allowed cosmetic variations).
Old Fuff said:
Perhaps. But there is some overlap in CA with some other states' laws, so it becomes efficient to do that.
Old Fuff said:
Probably not for a long time, except for some small firms. And we have ways of getting around that via the single-shot and single-action exemptions.
CA is the ~8th largest economy in the world, and there are a TON of people buying guns here. The greater SF Bay area alone is responsible (directly and indirectly combined) for 4% of the US's GNP. I believe CA new gun sales exceed that of a whole slough of Western states, combined. S&W factory folk have told me they LOVE CA, and they're gonna do everything they can to ensure Californians can buy their guns.
Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
mojohand
Member
There's only so much you can do when your out numbered. I guarantee you we all vote for the pro-gun candidates, but guess what...we don't have the votes! So spare us the, "it's your fault if you don't just vote them out" garbage. Is it DC's fault that the gun owners there didn't just vote out the anti-gunners there? They had 30 years, and now we're waiting on the Supreme Court to figure it out. I hope you relish the freedoms you have in your states. And I hope if they begin to erode away as your electorate changes and you need help, you won't hear, "Just vote them out!"
Somewhere, someone has to be the spark that sets off the keg. I believe that would be the main purpose for an embargo in California. Pro-gunners are horribly out numbered in Cali. The whole idea of an embargo there would be to force the issue. Since so much of the country follows California example, that seems to be the logical place to start. Not selling to government agencies there won't work, there aren't enough of them to vote new laws into effect. Not selling to anyone, might. It would force the voting public there to reconsider the futility of gun bans.
And remember all non-Californians, for an embargo to truly work, it means NO ONE ANYWHERE would buy firearms from any company that sells to Californians. This would affect the money flow of the manufacturers and bring change.
I have nothing against California. I think that it is the most anti state and therefore the most logical place for this to happen. Better for this to go ahead and happen in one state alone. It would set an example for the rest and it would be much easier to deal with on a state level than a federal level.
And remember all non-Californians, for an embargo to truly work, it means NO ONE ANYWHERE would buy firearms from any company that sells to Californians. This would affect the money flow of the manufacturers and bring change.
I have nothing against California. I think that it is the most anti state and therefore the most logical place for this to happen. Better for this to go ahead and happen in one state alone. It would set an example for the rest and it would be much easier to deal with on a state level than a federal level.
You bet they will, and so will most if not all of the others...
But only so long as they make money doing it. If the California Legislature passes a law they can't (or won't) live with they'll be gone.
Unfortunately your left-wing legislators know this. It's only a matter of time.
86thecat
Member
Californians- It's your state, your laws and your neighbors voting in the socialists. I don't understand why you all expect FFL's from other states to spend extra time and money to comply with CA's silliness to help you out. Your own FFL's sold you down the river on this one to block competition so maybe they should be boycotted.
.38 Special
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First off, this and similar posts on this thread again fall into the "Easy for you to say" category, as you're not the ones who would have to go without gun purchases.
Moreover, this still smacks of blaming California gun owners for the gun laws created by people who we did and do not support. Again, this is akin to blaming all the gun owners in Washington state for your 5 day waiting period.
As for what is "expected" of out-of-state FFLs, I guess I expect them to make money by selling guns. I would certainly understand if folks started adding a surcharge to cover the time wasted on this latest foolishness. But it certainly looks as though money isn't the issue nearly so much as "principle": FFLs trying to teach the anti-gunners in California a lesson by not selling guns to Californians. In point of fact, I tried to make arrangements to buy from an out-of-state FFL just today and was told that he would not ship to me because of the new law -- which doesn't go into effect for another two weeks. Obviously money has nothing to do with it, in at least some cases. "Principle", in this instance, seems to be a euphemism for throwing California gun owners under the bus.
The reality is, for most people in CA, guns are not even in the top 10 of issuses that are important to them.
Hell If I was elected tommarrow, getting the BS gun laws revoked would not even be in my top 5 things that need to be changed. That coming from some that very pro 2a.
Hell If I was elected tommarrow, getting the BS gun laws revoked would not even be in my top 5 things that need to be changed. That coming from some that very pro 2a.
86thecat
Member
38spl
If you have a WA CPL there is no waiting period.
I lived in Southern CA thru the 80's into the mid 90's and the hand writing was on the wall when I left. Most CA voters don't give a crap about firearms (and by the laws PASSED seem to be firm anti's) but if anyone makes a generalization it's always "don't paint CA with a wide brush". Well the laws speak for themselves.
Quote {"Principle", in this instance, seems to be a euphemism for throwing California gun owners under the bus.}
No, your Californian neighbors, Californian politicians and greedy Californian FFL's have already done that and backed up over you again for good measure.
I wish you all the best of luck changing things, but if it doesn't work out Washington can always use some more conservative shooters to help balance the nuts (many from down there) who have brought socialism to our coast.
If you have a WA CPL there is no waiting period.
I lived in Southern CA thru the 80's into the mid 90's and the hand writing was on the wall when I left. Most CA voters don't give a crap about firearms (and by the laws PASSED seem to be firm anti's) but if anyone makes a generalization it's always "don't paint CA with a wide brush". Well the laws speak for themselves.
Quote {"Principle", in this instance, seems to be a euphemism for throwing California gun owners under the bus.}
No, your Californian neighbors, Californian politicians and greedy Californian FFL's have already done that and backed up over you again for good measure.
I wish you all the best of luck changing things, but if it doesn't work out Washington can always use some more conservative shooters to help balance the nuts (many from down there) who have brought socialism to our coast.
Sam
Member
We are not 'throwing you under the wheels".
We are cutting the place loose.
You haven't been able to change your fellow subjects mind on the issue, despite multiple millions of dollars invested in trying to do so, it is not getting better. It is a source of contagion that needs to be removed before the malignancy spreads any further. We are already starting chemo out here.
Hopefully it isn't too late. Radiation therapy starts in 3 weeks
GET OUT,
VOTE WITH YOUR FEET(and your dollars),
YOU ARE DOING THE NATION A DISSERVICE BY PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO THE MEXIFORNIAN ECONOMY,
UN@$$ THE PEOPLES REPUBLIK OF MEXIFORNIA WHILE YOU STILL HAVE THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL(and before we colse the border).
DO NOT BRING ANY IDIOTIC SOCIALIST/MARXIST FOOLS WITH YOU.
Sam
We are cutting the place loose.
You haven't been able to change your fellow subjects mind on the issue, despite multiple millions of dollars invested in trying to do so, it is not getting better. It is a source of contagion that needs to be removed before the malignancy spreads any further. We are already starting chemo out here.
Hopefully it isn't too late. Radiation therapy starts in 3 weeks
GET OUT,
VOTE WITH YOUR FEET(and your dollars),
YOU ARE DOING THE NATION A DISSERVICE BY PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO THE MEXIFORNIAN ECONOMY,
UN@$$ THE PEOPLES REPUBLIK OF MEXIFORNIA WHILE YOU STILL HAVE THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL(and before we colse the border).
DO NOT BRING ANY IDIOTIC SOCIALIST/MARXIST FOOLS WITH YOU.
Sam
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Animal Mother
Member
I think a lot of gunnies would share the sentiments of the late comedian Bill Hicks opinion of California.
From the liner notes of his posthumus album Arizona Bay
From the liner notes of his posthumus album Arizona Bay
86thecat
Member
How do we go about that legally? Could be called The United Cities of America, give them their own laws (shira or socialism), their own language (spanish), their own president (obama), and put walls around them for their own protection.
WoofersInc
Member
People have been talking about California and it's gun laws and how people should leave, boycott, etc. Others have come back with gun laws alone don't make a difference.
I used to live in California and can speak with some experiance. For me it was a long list of things that together made California a place I no longer wanted to be in. They banned most of the firearms I was interested in. They listen to the extreme envirionmentalalists and are closing down ATV areas left and right. They are giving the state away to illegal immigrants. Heck they even tried to legislate that you could not spank your own children when they were bad.
It is the whole attitiude of the state government that they know better than you what you need and how to live that made me leave.
Yes gun rights played a big part in my decision but it was also the many other things that they are trying to legislate that make most people hate California.
I would be more than happy to help the gun owners of California any way I can as I have friends that remain there, but it is the overall direction the state is taking in ALL matters that I have a hard time dealing with.
Until the government of the state gets away from their basically communistic views, it does not look good for my friends left behind there or the people who actually have common sense.
I used to live in California and can speak with some experiance. For me it was a long list of things that together made California a place I no longer wanted to be in. They banned most of the firearms I was interested in. They listen to the extreme envirionmentalalists and are closing down ATV areas left and right. They are giving the state away to illegal immigrants. Heck they even tried to legislate that you could not spank your own children when they were bad.
It is the whole attitiude of the state government that they know better than you what you need and how to live that made me leave.
Yes gun rights played a big part in my decision but it was also the many other things that they are trying to legislate that make most people hate California.
I would be more than happy to help the gun owners of California any way I can as I have friends that remain there, but it is the overall direction the state is taking in ALL matters that I have a hard time dealing with.
Until the government of the state gets away from their basically communistic views, it does not look good for my friends left behind there or the people who actually have common sense.
Sam,
Since you have decided you no longer want to sell to California, maybe it would be a good idea to at least let the CA gun owners know who you are? I didn't see a name of your business listed, or are CA gun owners just supposed to know who you are?
As a former CA resident, I'd like to know the name of your business. Although your business decision won't directly impact me, I may wish to take your decision into consideration when I decide which business to patronize. I'm sure some of my fellow shooters here in Maryland would be interested in this information as well, considering we are fighting much the same type of fight as our brothers in California.
Since you have decided you no longer want to sell to California, maybe it would be a good idea to at least let the CA gun owners know who you are? I didn't see a name of your business listed, or are CA gun owners just supposed to know who you are?
As a former CA resident, I'd like to know the name of your business. Although your business decision won't directly impact me, I may wish to take your decision into consideration when I decide which business to patronize. I'm sure some of my fellow shooters here in Maryland would be interested in this information as well, considering we are fighting much the same type of fight as our brothers in California.
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