Can a crimp serve same purpose for neck tension?

[Rule3]

Because if you want the final lenght to be the same, you don't want to cut them until you have finished moving metal around by sizing them.

Yes, I know that. however I do know of many people who trim before sizing, If the come out of the same rifle, the slight difference "growth" is minimal and they all come out the same when it's all over.

We are not talking bench-rest accuracy methods here. Building a Timex not a Rolex.

 

[jmorris]

I know many people that hit their fingers with a hammer too but that doesn't make it the right way to use the tool.

The words "if, slight and minimal" are the ones that always get me.

If everything is just right, you might not even need to trim between loadings but you won't know the final OAL of the case until you size it.

FWIW there is more precision in a Timex than a Rolex, gears and springs were around a long time before anyone had the ability to create the integrated circuit.

 

[Rule3]

You are 100% correct.

Which is why I said "not the preferred method"

Also if the OP is using a bolt action he can just neck size and not worry about trimming all the time. But then there is that debate of FLS and NS also.
My suggestion was first and foremost to hone the pilot down

I guess the old saying should have been "grandfather Clock": But there is probably nits to pick or hairs to split there also.

The "recommended" case trimmer was suggested to be Wilson. Direct from their website:

https://lewilson.com/


Neck Sizing Only
Allows you to keep your Case as Fire Formed as possible to YOUR guns Chamber. We use the term – “Not all chambers are created equal”. By Neck Sizing Only you can achieve more accuracy out of your rounds because there is less movement in the brass upon firing. More energy is transferred to the projectile then to expanding the brass. Another added bonus, by Neck Sizing only you will improve the longevity of the brass by not overworking it.

 

[fguffey]

be careful with this as pressures can get out of hand if you are already at the top end of the reloading data. some bullets are very accurate when loaded this way, some are not (berger usually recommends seating bullets a ways off the lands for best accuracy).

Murf, I am the fan of the jump start, I want my bullets to hit the lands 'a running'. I want the bullet past the lands before the bullet knows the lands are there.

A bad time to get a spike is when the bullet is setting still at the lands, or worst, to have the bullet stop at the lands until there is enough pressure to shove it through, and then we have to worry about perfect timing.

F. Guffey

 

[jmorris]

I suppose my question is why do some of them seem looser than others? Mixed brass, where did it come from, same lot, same number of firings, any attempt at annealing, if so what was the process?

If it is a tool or part of a tool that when inserted into the case causes the problem, I would think that all cases that had interaction with the "bad" tool would then be "bad" themselves.

If some cases are OK, as the op suggests and others not, that would make me think there is variation in the cases, assuming the pilot isn't changing from case to case.

Seating out to the lands for my loads is the exception vs the rule because I have many rifles chambered alike and I don't like "special" ammunition but in somecases its worth it and might tell the op something.

 

[homatok]

In your initial post you said:

I’ve found that Sierra bullets tend to like more neck tension than others but when I trim many times I think the pilot on my case trimmer loosens the tension up. What if I put a light crimp on them? Wouldn’t this make things more consistant? I’ve never crimped, any of you tested this?

Later:

Well I sure can tell a difference when seating bullets. Some slide in easy , some require more force . I can promise you they shoot different, I've set the ones that I felt more tension seating aside, they shoot better. Now, the bullet diameter could be varying a little. It's the correct pilot, it's very snug on some. I even tryed running them through a a bushing die right before I load, still they don't all feel the same when seating bullets.

You did not indicate how many times the cases have been reloaded, but you say "when I trim many times---". Then later you say "Well I sure can tell a difference when seating bullets. Some slide in easy , some require more force ." Your problem may be from cases that have been work-hardened by repeated size-fire-repeat cycles. As brass hardens, it has less and less "spring-back" when sized. Consequently tension becomes less. Poster #30 questioned whether you had annealed your cases? If you have an annealing regimen in your process then it may be the expander causing your problem but I would try annealing before I modified an expander button. Previous posters are correct, crimping will not solve a tension problem!

 

[Sam1911]

Neck tension is something that is not and cannot be measured

Heavens that's a silly thing to say. Pull-out force required to unseat a bullet, as influenced by the interference-fit of a bullet in an expanded brass case could be measured without any great difficulty. Most of us reloaders don't have an accurate means by which to measure it, but it certainly can be measured. And all of the factors which contribute to it (bullet diameter, post-sizing neck interior diameter, seating depth vs. case neck length, etc.) can be measured quite simply at the reloading bench.

 

[mdi]

Ok. I use a old Lyman universal case trimmer, I hate it. I just watched a video on the L E Wilson trimmer, that thing looks precise. Might have to get one of those! Thanks!

If your pilot is enlarging the case neck, just make it smaller. Chuck the pilot in a drlll and spin it in some emery cloth. It'll reduce the diameter quite quickly so go slow and measure often. Reduce the OD three or four thousandths and try it. But a new tool is a good thing, anytime...

 

[joneb]

I use the Lyman universal trimmer for 357 and 44 magnum brass, I had to decrease the diameter of those pilots.
I use Wilson trimmer for rifle and it does a great job.

 

[Varminterror]

If your trimmer pilot is loosening your neck diameter, then you simply need to replace the pilot with one of an appropriate diameter, or chuck yours into a drill and run it against paper to run off a slight bit. It should be a comfortable slip fit, with no resizing done to the neck at all. You also have the option of neck sizing post trimming.

As others have stated, crimp does NOT equate neck tension.

Neck tension is something that is not and cannot be measured. The bullet doesn't like it or dislike either.

Absolutely foolish garbage on both counts.

 

[Shimitup]

One of the easiest ways to check bullet interference in the neck is to measure the OD of the neck before and after seating, at that point you can get a precise figure for neck wall thickness by subtracting bullet diameter from the neck OD /2. Of course this gives you all that information after you've seated your bullet, perhaps in an unsatisfactory case with a thin neck. Best to sort cases and discard thin necked ones before you even start to process your cases. They make tube wall micrometers which use a round anvil which I bet a lot of benchresters have, personally I just use a quality dial caliper where I can read between the lines. Digitals seem to all have no more than .0005 resolution, for that reason I don't care for them. I really like to see .001 neck expansion when seating at a minimum.

 

[Axis II]

for the sake of not starting another thread I ran into this today. I had to pull about 10 45-70 300gr bullets with a Frankfort arsenal hammer and one whack on a 4x4 block they were pulled. Could this be poor neck tension? I feel my Hornady dies don't flare when setup per instructions cause ive buckled a few cases but where I can seat a bullet without buckling seems like its too much flare.

 

[murf]

Murf, I am the fan of the jump start, I want my bullets to hit the lands 'a running'. I want the bullet past the lands before the bullet knows the lands are there.

A bad time to get a spike is when the bullet is setting still at the lands, or worst, to have the bullet stop at the lands until there is enough pressure to shove it through, and then we have to worry about perfect timing.

F. Guffey

and perfect bullet seating so every bullet stops at the same spot in the rifling every time. not going to happen! hence the importance of having the correct steating stem for the bullet.

glad you are back, fguffey.

murf

 

[murf]

If your trimmer pilot is loosening your neck diameter, then you simply need to replace the pilot with one of an appropriate diameter, or chuck yours into a drill and run it against paper to run off a slight bit. It should be a comfortable slip fit, with no resizing done to the neck at all. You also have the option of neck sizing post trimming.

As others have stated, crimp does NOT equate neck tension.



Absolutely foolish garbage on both counts.

a good use for the neck sizing die in your three die set!

murf

 

[murf]

One of the easiest ways to check bullet interference in the neck is to measure the OD of the neck before and after seating, at that point you can get a precise figure for neck wall thickness by subtracting bullet diameter from the neck OD /2. Of course this gives you all that information after you've seated your bullet, perhaps in an unsatisfactory case with a thin neck. Best to sort cases and discard thin necked ones before you even start to process your cases. They make tube wall micrometers which use a round anvil which I bet a lot of benchresters have, personally I just use a quality dial caliper where I can read between the lines. Digitals seem to all have no more than .0005 resolution, for that reason I don't care for them. I really like to see .001 neck expansion when seating at a minimum.

suggest you make sure to allow for variations in neck wall thickness. if the wall thickness variance is .002" and you want .001" tension, you should make sure you measure the neck at the same spot before and after seating the bullet. otherwise you may get erroneous readings.

murf

 

[murf]

for the sake of not starting another thread I ran into this today. I had to pull about 10 45-70 300gr bullets with a Frankfort arsenal hammer and one whack on a 4x4 block they were pulled. Could this be poor neck tension? I feel my Hornady dies don't flare when setup per instructions cause ive buckled a few cases but where I can seat a bullet without buckling seems like its too much flare.

since the 45-70 is a straight wall case, you can just measure the o.d. of the case at the seated bullet and at a point just below the seated bullet to get you tension (the difference in the two readings).

murf

 

[murf]

Heavens that's a silly thing to say. Pull-out force required to unseat a bullet, as influenced by the interference-fit of a bullet in an expanded brass case could be measured without any great difficulty. Most of us reloaders don't have an accurate means by which to measure it, but it certainly can be measured. And all of the factors which contribute to it (bullet diameter, post-sizing neck interior diameter, seating depth vs. case neck length, etc.) can be measured quite simply at the reloading bench.

just measure the "push in" force. make a dummy round, measure the c.o.l., press te tip of the bullet into your reloading bench as hard as you can, remeasure the c.o.l.. if you can push the bullet into the case, you may want to reevaluate your seating procedure. if you want to find out what force it takes to push the bullet in, substitute a bathroom scale for the reloading bench.

murf

 

[Axis II]

since the 45-70 is a straight wall case, you can just measure the o.d. of the case at the seated bullet and at a point just below the seated bullet to get you tension (the difference in the two readings).

murf

I got one for ya.

I messed with the flare die last night and not paying attention grabbed a non flared case and the bullet seated without issue. I am guessing this is due to me trimming, chamfer and deburring the cases. I loaded 20rds and didn't flare a single one.

 

[murf]

just make sure you are not shaving bullet material off with that unflaired case. suggest you get a 4x magnifying glass and check. if no shaving, you are good to go.

whatever your seating method, be consistent.

luck,

murf

 

[Shimitup]

suggest you make sure to allow for variations in neck wall thickness. if the wall thickness variance is .002" and you want .001" tension, you should make sure you measure the neck at the same spot before and after seating the bullet. otherwise you may get erroneous readings.

murf

Indeed, Important detail.

 

[FROGO207]

I have polished most of my expander balls down a bit and use an inside chamfer tool on all my rifle case mouths now. The VLD reamer and annealing every third firing. A bit more time consuming but not much of a problem with neck tension around here anymore. YMMV