Cane As Weapon: Optimal Diameters & Weights ?

[PeteCress]

This post is going to ramble a bit.

Since accepting the fact that I am going to need a cane for the rest of my days, I decided to embrace it and try to craft an aerobic workout routine around it.

Realistically, if I ever got into it with some young guy, the chances are 99% that he would take the cane from me, stick it where the sun never shines, and then beat me to death with it.

But, against that 1%, I've spent the past couple of years reading/watching everything I can find on canes as weapons - and spending 45 minutes every other day beating the crap out of a couple of boat bumpers in my back yard - keeping my heart rate between 85 and 95 percent of (220 - my Age):



I don't really have the expertise to back it up, but I have been calling BS on a lot of the cane self-defense videos I have seen: basically guys doing unrealistically-complex moves against slow-moving or stationary and compliant "Opponents".

Until I read Carl Levitian's reference to Tony Wolf's Falcon Defense Cane Basic System, the only game in town that made sense to me was Michael Janich's Martial Cane Concepts DVD - which I bought on Amazon early in the game.

In fact, Tony Wolf's video ,
as sensible as it looks, would have more impact on me if it were done with full-contact and full-speed. Also, the guy's jabs don't feel right because he has no focus and he's not pulling the cane back fast enough to prevent it being grabbed.... but I know nothing and that's just my impression.

All that being said, I have been obsessing about optimal cane weight/density/diameter.

From the Janich DVD, I take away the notion that I want to be jabbing to keep more than arm's-length (punching) distance between me and the Bad Guy, while trying to inflict a baton fracture on one of his shins (i.e. compromise his mobility sufficiently for me to retreat to a position of safety). ... Another contributor's observation about having seen a baseball bat broken on a guy's shin without putting him down doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about this strategy.... but that's the strategy I have been going with so far.

I'm thinking that, speed-wise, I want that cane moving fast enough for it to make a "Swish" sound. ... No particular reason besides seeing that Janich's strikes make that sound and they look to me like they would almost certainly put a major hurt on somebody's shin.

For me, that seems to be a cane that weighs somewhere between 300 and 500 grams. I work out on the boat bumpers with one that weighs 600 grams, but I can't swing it fast enough to make any sound..... although the mass is definately something to be reckoned with even at a slower speed.

But after speed and mass, we have contact area.

I have to think that, for a given mass, narrower is better.

My canes tend to be fat because I made half of them from broken windsurfing and SUP paddling gear... reasonably light, but fat:

Top-to-bottom, in grams, we're talking 600, 560, 500, 450, 430, 360, 350, 330.

In ounces, that's 21.2, 19.8, 17.6, 15.9, 12.7, 12.3, and 11.6.

But except for #'s 4, 5, &6 (which don't feel to me like they have the needed durability) they're all fat: i.e. the force at contact would be applied over a broader area.

The top two are 1 1/16" in diameter and things go downhill from there and I think the 330 (made from a section of broken SUP paddle) would almost certainly break if I wacked somebody on a shin hard enough to hurt. ... And, of course, the alu drugstore cane is going to pretzel immediately from anything besides a jab.

This brings us to Carl Levitian's 3/4" ironwood cane - which sounds to me like some sort of optimal compromise.

It also brings us to Carl's post on testing his cane on various dead animal parts.

In two years of searching, Carl's testing is the first non-BS information I have found vis-a-vis real-world damage.... Way to go Carl !

Carl, are you there?

If so, what is the weight of your 3/4" ironwood cane?

 

[hso]

If you read through the cane threads you will find references to Cane Masters canes as well as sources for hickory livestock canes. These are generally larger diameter than walking canes and proportionality heavier. You can order them or find them in farm supply stores or farmers coops. I order mine to make into defensive canes for folks.

As to the swoosh sound, I find the technique used makes a lot of difference in whether you get that speed or not just as striking a focus mitt to get the CRACK! instead of a thud is dependent upon proper technique. That depends upon proper instruction, which requires a good instructor. Michael Janich is an outstanding martial arts teacher. If you can't go to his seminars then you should look for a good Hapkido school that teaches cane.

 

[Fiv3r]

I view canes as weapons as a way to limit bodily harm, that is to say keep an attacker's strikes, punches and grabs far enough away to limit their effect. I also think jabs and strikes to the softer, weaker bits like the neck or collarbone or knee may take the fight out of a passive attacker.

A determined one...I dunno.

I have several heavy walking sticks that are basically battle axes. They are thick and clumsy but would cave in a noggin as easily as a wood softball bad. They dont look like weapons exactly, but as a healthy athletic 38 year old they look out of place as a walking aid.

My favorite little stick for walking and keeping charging dogs at bay is a feather light one I made out of fresh willow. It's got an almost derby-like natural grip for an easy grip. It's got a whimsical twisty body that doesn't look like it was made for an 18th century Irish gang-fight. I coated it in shellac and it looks like a tourist piece.

The cast iron tip I screwed and glued on gives the end of the cane a substantial weight for a nasty strike. Both the mass of the metal as well as how it concentrates a lot of force in a small area. The derby shape of the grip is not only comfortable to hold but offers a good bit of locking surface should I need to control an arm or something.

I dunno the weight, but for how I would use a cane as an everyday item/weapon, its rattan light.

 

[dvcrsn]

a cane for handling livestock is a decent choice for a defensive cane or you can get either a straight stick made of hickory or other hardwood from Whistle Creek or Brazos walking sticks as well as a shepherd crook or livestock cane from either place--I carried a 4 1/2 foot hickory stick from Whistle Creek and still have it--I need tips that are over an inch in diameter and when I worked as a security guard, the other guards didn't realize that I had a very effective baton that I could bring into action very fast until I sparred against them--or you can go with one of Cold Steel's polypropylene canes which weigh close to 2 pounds and are very strong

 

[darkcloud]

Mine is a simple walking stick I made from black locust with an elk antler burr. Heavy and hard as god's forehead. I prefer a walking stick as it is longer and I have kept dogs at bay at a much more comfortable distance. The antler burr used as a punching strike will do some serious hurt and if taken to the chin you are going down. Lets face it if an attacker gets a grip on the stick/cane then other options must be applied. Strikes to the nose with the forehead or strike to the knee joint are a couple of options. I avoid it as best I can because I know it will get down and dirty quickly and I plan on being the dirtiest one in the confrontation as I have always been. No rules and someone is going to the ER and it isn't going to be me. I am a disabled 61 yo but when the adrenaline level rises things change. Adrenaline is a nasty drug! I have no real plans other than keep my distance as best i can and try and get away. The best laid plans go to hxxx with the 1st blow.

 

[jeepnik]

About 50 years ago I studied Kali. You’d be amazed how much damage a short stick can inflict. Not to mention how fast it can be done. Many of the same strike points would be available to a person wielding a cane.

The problem is that those needing a cane for support or mobility aren’t able to use it as a weapon without falling down.

 

[Mn Fats]

Hmm. I don't understand canes for self defense for the elderly so much. Unless your traveling abroad and can't carry a gun. If a cane was all I had for defense, seems to me i'd want it the highest weight and diameter that I was comfortable using daily.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

a cane for handling livestock is a decent choice for a defensive cane or you can get either a straight stick made of hickory or other hardwood from Whistle Creek or Brazos walking sticks as well as a shepherd crook or livestock cane from either place--I carried a 4 1/2 foot hickory stick from Whistle Creek and still have it--I need tips that are over an inch in diameter and when I worked as a security guard, the other guards didn't realize that I had a very effective baton that I could bring into action very fast until I sparred against them--or you can go with one of Cold Steel's polypropylene canes which weigh close to 2 pounds and are very strong

I use the Cold Steel Dragon. A well designed cane. One of the few long enough for me, and it is the correct length for me without cutting. Heavy, flexible and practically unbreakable. I have used it to catch myself and my 340 lbs. deflected the cane about 6 inches and the cane sprung back. Its jagged design with the texture make for a good grip. My only complaint is damage to the nose and teeth from impact on concrete when dropped. It doesn't affect the structure of the cane, though. If you need to cut the cane you will need to turn the end to accept a tip. The factory end is sized to one inch.

My plan for a close attack is to use the cane until I am able to draw a gun.

From my studies, the best tactic for disabling an attacker are jabs to the kidney, temple, liver and bladder. Continued impact to these areas can also cause permanent damage to the opponent.

 

[NMPOPS]

I make my own canes from hickory, locust and maple. I make them about 1 inch thick and they are very sturdy. I learned baton techniques as an LEO and the same strikes and jabs work with a cane. Above the shoulders is off limits; too much chance of permanent injury or death. I am old enough and have occasional sciatic nerve pain that carrying a cane is never questioned.

 

[Old Dog]

My ortho guy told me I'm gonna need a total knee replacement sooner than later (already have had one knee cut on three times, the other once) ... What with the significant arthritis and calcium deposits, I'm conceding that my skiing days are almost over and a cane might be needed.

Nothing to add other than I'm getting ready to learn more about self-defense with sticks (been a baton instructor for years) ... So I'm following these threads. Thanks, guys.

 

[hso]

In short, there's no numeric "optimal weight and diameter", but optimal is what you can handle optimally. The heaviest you can make "CRACK!" on a leather heavy bag with a diameter that fits your hands optimally. Idealy you can work your way up to heavier canes while keeping that speed through exercises and practice. The material of the cane should be strong enough to hit a large heavy bone without breaking the stick. Straight grained hickory fits that description as does iron wood, lignum vitae and several metal, polymer and composite rods. Training is very important in learning and practicing good technique and there are different approaches from western and eastern martial arts to LE/Corrections training, but don't underestimate the will to fight back without training. Without the mindset and will to fight all out you're short on the three things needed in self defense, mindset, skillset, toolset.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have a Cold Steel Blackthorn cane ,Several stock canes from the Farm Store and some nicer ones I refinished from antique stores. I also have two Hame headed Canes made from Hickory and Oak Shovel handles.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I try to apply Bayonet and Jo training to the canes I carry.

 

[CapnMac]

Your background will "drive" the design the suits you best. That, and your physiological requirements that warrant the cane.

My training includes some years of jo and yari, where there is an expectation to use the entire haft as a gripping surface. So, it wants to be something like 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" (30-35mm) diameter or so. But, that's my bias; others' will differ.

As to weight, that really goes to need rather than to effect. A lighter cane is easier to handle for ordinary tasks. It can be quite annoying to go about the grocery store with a heavier cane, especially since it will want to escape you at every turn. But, my stick training was about leverage, not mass, per se.

And, my use of a cane is more about not falling over, and pacing myself, rather than being required to stand up.. So, keeping the thing corralled is about as important as how it grips. Which is why I have settled on T grips or round knobs. Knob end a little more polite while seated, especially in auditorium-style seating. T handle is handy for snagging things.

If less so when "helpful" people stash the thing way across the room, or in the coat closet or some such. Which is why Ive been installing short lanyards on mine. Just a simple loop, enough to get over a coat hook, or the like (or looped over the cellphone on its beltclip).

My cane is not EDC, not yet, at least. Is it a weapon? Maybe. I have kubotan training, too; so that Uniball Vision pen in my shirt pocket "counts" too, maybe. Skillset, mindset, and toolset are all inter-related.

Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[jeepnik]

I started using a stainless steel cane last year. It has a T handle. The weight and handle took a bit of getting used to.

The only issue is that it doesn’t break down into smaller segments. I’ve been thinking of finding a machine shop
To cut it in two and machine some interrupted threads for guick assembly and disassembly.

The disassembly is more for storage. But two short sections would make a devistating impact weapon.

 

[JShirley]

For me, at a cane length, anything over 1 1/8 is too fat. Anything less than .75" is too skinny.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

For me, at a cane length, anything over 1 1/8 is too fat. Anything less than .75" is too skinny.

I generally agree ,I believe shovel handle a just a bit bigger!

 

[dvcrsn]

I use the Cold Steel Dragon. A well designed cane. One of the few long enough for me, and it is the correct length for me without cutting. Heavy, flexible and practically unbreakable. I have used it to catch myself and my 340 lbs. deflected the cane about 6 inches and the cane sprung back. Its jagged design with the texture make for a good grip. My only complaint is damage to the nose and teeth from impact on concrete when dropped. It doesn't affect the structure of the cane, though. If you need to cut the cane you will need to turn the end to accept a tip. The factory end is sized to one inch.

My plan for a close attack is to use the cane until I am able to draw a gun.

From my studies, the best tactic for disabling an attacker are jabs to the kidney, temple, liver and bladder. Continued impact to these areas can also cause permanent damage to the opponent.

I have both the Dragon and African walking sticks and use them both

 

[FL-NC]

A company called fashionable canes sells Irish blackthorn walking sticks, canes, and even traditional shealeighs.

 

[RedlegRick]

I not only use a cane daily-daily, but have called upon it to administer a thumping to an idiot while walking home from the bar.

Never really thought about it in a martial arts sense, my forte was unarmed forms, but I looked at bartitsu a little. You have to remember the cane's first job is as your walking aid, weapon second. Jabs, thrusts, and blocks are what you want to think about, not swinging it around.

I have two, a lightweight summer and good weather carbon fiber unit from Fashionable Canes, and a steel medical grade winter cane I accessorized with an ice spike. Both behave differently and cause different effects.

I used mine at first to ward my attacker off using an overhand thrust to the face, and when he grabbed onto it, used the leverage he gave me to whop him in the face with my free hand. Ended up bashing him in the side of the head and following up with a thrust into his eye.

Focus on balance without support and be prepared for them to try to sweep it away from you. Try to keep both hands on it during thrusts and blocks, but be ready to deal if they get hold of it.

The way I did it wasn't pretty, but it worked, the kid hobbled away as badly as I did.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Glad your ok Red!

 

[RedlegRick]

Thanks, but I took a few good hits from the kid, Chuck Norris I am not. His eye had to be in bad shape, I got him real good and that pretty much ended the dance.
Note to the OP: there's no such thing as a fair fight, especially if you're not in good shape to begin with.
Don't make any speeches or talk smack, when the fists fly, go to town and assume your opponent intends on killing you.
Try to kill him back first, if that makes any sense, and cheat.
Pull hair, gouge eyes, bite, kick, scratch and go for the cajones from the start. Only reason I won was because I dredged up as many dirty tricks I used to use when I was a bouncer in college bars. My cane was merely the instrument I had at hand at the moment, as I had been in a bar and I don't mix gunpowder and alcohol ever.

 

[Fiv3r]

These cane threads have inspired me to do a little engineering with some more willow I have left over.

I think I'm going to make an axe head cane. I've got an old cold steel pipe tomahawk head that I think I can grind on. I'm going to take the edge all the way off the head and grind away a nice grip on the blade. I think I'll strip the epoxy paint off the blade and mount that head onto a rather curvy piece of willow I have. It won't look like an axe with such a shaft. The head won't be able to chop wood anymore either.

However, when I get either the dull "blade" or the pipe bowl going in an arc, I think it will do the job. Should be a fun project of making a weapon that hides in plain sight.

Unlike my other willow cane where all the mass is in the tip, this one will be a head heavy battle club.

 

[RedlegRick]

Those are called 'valoshkas' (sp.?), common in Poland and Eastern Europe. You can also use a shingling hammer as a head too.

 

[dvcrsn]

Thanks, but I took a few good hits from the kid, Chuck Norris I am not. His eye had to be in bad shape, I got him real good and that pretty much ended the dance.
Note to the OP: there's no such thing as a fair fight, especially if you're not in good shape to begin with.
Don't make any speeches or talk smack, when the fists fly, go to town and assume your opponent intends on killing you.
Try to kill him back first, if that makes any sense, and cheat.
Pull hair, gouge eyes, bite, kick, scratch and go for the cajones from the start. Only reason I won was because I dredged up as many dirty tricks I used to use when I was a bouncer in college bars. My cane was merely the instrument I had at hand at the moment, as I had been in a bar and I don't mix gunpowder and alcohol ever.

if you are attacked, if you don't do everything to change it to your advantage, you are wrong--while I carry a stick more for handling curbs and getting on and off buses, I am carrying enough extra weight so people don't notice how little weight I am putting on it