Carbide vs Steel Handgun Dies

[mkl]

Help out my memory here.

I seem to recall that the older style steel dies (non-carbide) sized a straight wall handgun case with a slight taper to the case wall. In other words, the neck area of the case had a slightly smaller diameter that that area close to the head of the case.

The carbide dies use a "ring" and I believe this sizes the entire case wall to the same diameter -- e.g. no taper to the case.

Is my memory correct? If so, would the taper give better case life due to less working of the brass near the case head?

 

[Walkalong]

Carbide dies are made strictly to avoid lubing the cases. The 9MM is a tapered case, but the carbide insert has a bit of a taper as well. It does comprimise some though. A full length carbide insert would be expensive.

I don't know about the old steel dies having a taper in the straight walled calibers.

 

[Jim Watson]

A steel die is reamed to full contact with the case and can incorporate taper better than a carbide insert, and you can dream about (not necessarily count on) "better case life". But the convenience of not having to lube (and de-lube) brass far outweighs the possibility of more shots out of a case. For me, at least.

The only application I have seen that makes sense for a steel die in a straight wall pistol case is to allow MORE sizing. RCBS would make a .45 Colt die with a tight neck to give good bullet pull on a .452" bullet without overworking the base. They would also make a .38 Special die to allow reliable use of 9mm bullets.

 

[mkl]

Walkalong:

I've never reloaded the 9mm, so didn't know it had a taper.

Specifically, I was thinking of 38/357 and 45 Colt.

Reason for asking is that I've got a bunch of 45 Colt cases that I'm getting ready to reload.

I've got at a set of RCBS dies made in 1974 which are all steel, and a set of Hornady New Dimension dies (titanium nitride, which I assume is similar to carbide) and trying to decide which sizing die to use.

I use the "bag method" and Hornady One-Shot for handgun cases, so lube/no-lube won't be a big deal.

 

[ranger335v]

"Is my memory correct? If so, would the taper give better case life due to less working of the brass near the case head?"

You are correct, in both instances.

 

[243winxb]

38/357 and 45 Colt.

http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm No taper if the drawings are correct

 

[243winxb]

titanium nitride require some lube. Carbide dies do not.

 

[zxcvbob]

I have steel .45 Colt dies, plus a carbide sizing die that I got when I was tired of lubing the cases.

I think the steel dies do have a slight taper, but the brass never wears out at the web anyway (it either cracks at the case mouth, or splits in the middle) so it doesn't much matter.

 

[rcmodel]

I've got at a set of RCBS dies made in 1974

I have read that .45 Colt dies that old where made slightly oversize, with sizer die and expander stems more suited to .454" lead bullets.

Newer dies are supposed to be tighter and more suited to .452" bullets common today.

Might be worth comparing the measurements of your two die sets and see what you get.

rcmodel

 

[zxcvbob]

I have read that .45 Colt dies that old where made slightly oversize, with sizer die and expander stems more suited to .454" lead bullets. Newer dies are supposed to be tighter and more suited to .452" bullets common today.

Might be worth comparing the measurements of your two die sets and see what you get.

That might explain why I had so much trouble with loose bullets when I tried loading copper-plated 230's. I'm sure I was still using the old steel dies at the time.

 

[243winxb]

+1 what rc said

 

[mkl]

243winxb:

titanium nitride require some lube. Carbide dies do not.

My original post question originated from the statement on the instructions included with the 45 Colt New Dimension die set which said: "Hornady's Titanium Nitride three-die sets are lube-free."

That is what caused me to think it was similar to carbide.

Given your advice, I'll use One-Shot in either case (RCBS or Hornady).

Thanks

mkl

 

[243winxb]

Dont over do the lube on titanium nitride dies. Just a touch of lube from your fingertips every 3 or 5 cases is all thats needed.

 

[mkl]

Resized cases measured

Well, this took a while since the Hornady set left an oval mouth on the cases.

I am using a Mitutoyo digital caliper whose calibration chart shows zero error out to four decimal places.

The 1974 RCBS carbon steel dies do leave a case taper and a perfectly round case (measuring Remington 45 Colt cases).

Measurements (outside dimensions) are: Mouth: 0.4715; Mid-wall of case: 0.4770; Web before rim: 0.4760. All measurements in inches. These are the measurements of five resized cases and did not vary more than 0.0005 inch.

The Hornady New Dimension dies left an oval case mouth. Not a lot, about 0.020 inches, but enough to drive me crazy while measuring until I decided to try concentric measurements.

Ignoring the case mouth, the Hornady die left the middle of the case wall at a uniform 0.4705 inch diameter. Web before rim was 0.4760 inches as would be expected (no pressure signs).

All cases were the same (Remington) and none had had high pressure loads shot previously (7.5 grains Unique, 200 grain lead SWC).

In all fairness to the Hornady, the die set has the following label: "45 ACP - WIN MAG/AR/LONG COLT" -- I bought it for my 45 ACPs and it works great for them. I asked the original question since I was considering using the dies for the 45 Colt I'm getting ready to reload.

Don't think so now; I'll keep using the Hornady set for 45 ACP only.

Since the RCBS dies taper size the case to give a tight fit on 0.452 inch bullets, that will continue to be my dies of choice.

Thanks again for all the replies and help

mkl

 

[243winxb]

Measurements (outside dimensions) are: Mouth: 0.4715; Mid-wall of case: 0.4770; Web before rim: 0.4760.

The web is smaller than the middle?

 

[mkl]

The web is smaller than the middle?

Yes, the web is smaller. Web defined as the brass which encloses the primer pocket and flash hole, just below the case rim.

Web = 0.4760 inch, and middle of case wall = 0.4770.

I think I have the measurements correct; anyone else have a 45 Colt to check after passing through a carbon steel die?

Note the mouth is 0.4715 (OD) which indicates a taper and will hold a 0.452 bullet very tight.

 

[ranger335v]

"The Hornady New Dimension dies left an oval case mouth. Not a lot, about 0.020 inches,..."

Twenty thousanths out of round is a LOT!

 

[Jim Watson]

Two thou out of round is a lot.

 

[243winxb]

mkl, good memory

 

[mkl]

243 winxb wrote:

mkl, good memory

Thanks, like Captain Kirk, I sometimes have "mad cow disease."

ranger335v wrote:

Twenty thousanths out of round is a LOT!

I thought so also. That's why I'll use the RCBS steel dies for the 45 Colt. The Hornady dies have never given me a problem in 500+ 45 ACP loads, so I guess the sizing ring works okay for those. Never have tried it for the 45 Colt, and don't think I'm going to after my measurement results!

Thanks again guys.

 

[Walkalong]

I received a set of Hornady 9MM dies with my Projector many years ago. I did not lube the sizer. It wore the coating off in less than 1000 rounds. I bought a Lee carbide sizer and never looked back.

I really like the Hornady pistol die seater dies, but will never use their sizers or expanders again. In their defense, they may have improved both. It's been 20+ years.

I am using a fairly new RCBS .45 Colt die set. Its carbide sizer gives excellent neck tension with .452 bullets. I have read, like rcmodel, that the older ones were set up for .454 bullets, but I don't believe they have been made that way for many years.