Case burn??

[gunguy59]

hi everyone,
Question..I took some first reload up to the range and I am seeing some powder burning on the side of the cases (which I normally don't see with factory loads) and I am wondering if I'm either not crimping enough or maybe the charge isn't enough. I attached a picture of some .40 s&w and 9mm Luger. 9mm on the left, .40 on the right

My loads for them is as follows:

9mm
115 FMJ
HP38/win231 4.4gr
(Shot with ruger SR9)


.40 cal
115 flatpoint berrys
HP38/win231 5.2gr
(Shot with glock .23 with wolf barrel)

Are these burns ok? I have read a few places and some people say it is just natural and some say the charge isn't enough for full case expansion in the barrel.

Your thoughts?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Blue68f100]

Soot down the side of the case is normally a indication of Low pressure. The 9mm is below min depending on who's guide you using. Did not find any data for 115gr 40 cal, sure it's not 125gr.

Need to bump up your loads.

Make 10 of each starting at min and stepping in 0.1gr increments till you get to max or show signs of high pressure.

 

[gunguy59]

Soot down the side of the case is normally a indication of Low pressure. The 9mm is below min depending on who's guide you using. Did not find any data for 115gr 40 cal, sure it's not 125gr.

Need to bump up your loads.

Make 10 of each starting at min and stepping in 0.1gr increments till you get to max or show signs of high pressure.

I use a few guides
The hp38 says 5.1 but the hornady says 4.1 as the low and 4.7 as the high. So I just stuck in the middle.

My fault. They are 155gr flatpoint for the 40. (Always seem to write them as 115 here for some reason)

 

[Sunray]

4.4 grains of HP38/Win231 is below current minimum. Not by much though, but .6 of a grain under might be the cause. Mind you, a bit of soot isn't going to hurt anything. An FMJ doesn't expand or really do much of anything upon impact. Turns into a perfect little mushroom with hatch marks on top when it hits a properly supported Second Chance vest.
"...115 flat point berry's..." The "Berry's" is the key here. It's a plated bullet, not a jacketed bullet. 5.2 of HP38/Win231 should be fine. Even though it's just over minimum. All according to Hodgdon.

 

[Zendude]

If your 9mm load cycles the gun without any problem and is accurate, then I would keep using it for target practice. The light load is easier on the gun and on your hand.

 

[Bartojc]

I have shot a couple thousand 9mm with 115gr Berry's RN plated and 4.5 gr W231. It cycles both of my semi autos (Ruger SR9C and S/W Shield) and is acceptable for me for practice. I do get a few cases that look similar to yours. I just never bumped the load up. At the time I developed the load powder was really hard to find so the goal was acceptable performance with the least amount of powder.

-Jeff

 

[Dudedog]

Nothing to worry about IMO, just sooty. Light (lower pressure) loads will do that.
If your happy with the load stick with it. If the cases bother you try upping it .1 gr at a time until it goes away. (of course stay within load guidelines)

 

[gunguy59]

4.4 grains of HP38/Win231 is below current minimum. Not by much though, but .6 of a grain under might be the cause. Mind you, a bit of soot isn't going to hurt anything. An FMJ doesn't expand or really do much of anything upon impact. Turns into a perfect little mushroom with hatch marks on top when it hits a properly supported Second Chance vest.
"...115 flat point berry's..." The "Berry's" is the key here. It's a plated bullet, not a jacketed bullet. 5.2 of HP38/Win231 should be fine. Even though it's just over minimum. All according to Hodgdon.

Sunray - im kind of confused here.. you say that 4.4gr on the 9mm 115gr FMJ is below minimum. (I am by no means questioning you, you probably have more experience than me in they area) but the load data I have seen is for WIN231/HP-38 is at 4.1gr for the low and up to 4.7 for the high. This is coming from the Hornady data book. The hodgdon powder can is stating 5.1gr (but that is for a GDHP) I would think 4.4gr is falling somewhat in the middle. The Lymann manual doesn't carry the load data for this powder so I can't reference that book. Thoughts?

Would a lack of a good crimp cause this? I am still trying to figure out the whole crimping "thing" as I normally do rifle rounds and I don't crimp those.

Thanks
Ed

 

[Dudedog]

From Hodgdon
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
Lyman
115 GR. XTP WIN 231(=HP38) No bullet dia 1.09" 3.5 959 20,700 CUP 4.9 1253 32,100 CUP
115 GR Barnes WIN 231 No bullet dia 1.10" 3.5 959 23,800 CUP 5.0 1216 33,800 CUP
so I don't see 4.4 being .6gr below minimum. Maybe a little low for jacketed but again if it shoots well for you and functions fine I wouldn't worry about it.
A quick check for crimp/neck tension. Measure the OAL of some rounds. I have a small piece of 2X4 and give them a couple sharp taps (nose down) and re measure the OAL
If they don't get shorter your crimp is fine.
In 9mm I just like a light taper crimp, not like .357 where you may be roll crimping to keep bullets in. (note:to much crimp can ruin neck tension by squeezing down the bullet dia)
Unless all the brass is the same length (I never trim 9mm brass or measure it for that matter) and the same brand/lot there will be minor differences in thickness, so neck tension will vary a bit.

"...115 flat point berry's..." The "Berry's" is the key here. It's a plated bullet, not a jacketed bullet. 5.2 of HP38/Win231 should be fine. Even though it's just over minimum. All according to Hodgdon.

I don't see any data for The Berrys bullet on Hodgdon's site but I don't see 5.2gr as just over minimum, looks like it is MAX or slightly over to me.
If the Berrys is the hollow base that might allow for slightly heavier charges but 5.2 is on the High side IMO.

I completely agree with

If your 9mm load cycles the gun without any problem and is accurate, then I would keep using it for target practice

 

[gunguy59]

From Hodgdon
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
Lyman
115 GR. XTP WIN 231(=HP38) No bullet dia 1.09" 3.5 959 20,700 CUP 4.9 1253 32,100 CUP
115 GR Barnes WIN 231 No bullet dia 1.10" 3.5 959 23,800 CUP 5.0 1216 33,800 CUP
so I don't see 4.4 being .6gr below minimum. Maybe a little low for jacketed but again if it shoots well for you and functions fine I wouldn't worry about it.
A quick check for crimp/neck tension. Measure the OAL of some rounds. I have a small piece of 2X4 and give them a couple sharp taps (nose down) and re measure the OAL
If they don't get shorter your crimp is fine.
In 9mm I just like a light taper crimp, not like .357 where you may be roll crimping to keep bullets in. (note:to much crimp can ruin neck tension by squeezing down the bullet dia)
Unless all the brass is the same length (I never trim 9mm brass or measure it for that matter) and the same brand/lot there will be minor differences in thickness, so neck tension will vary a bit.


I don't see any data for The Berrys bullet on Hodgdon's site but I don't see 5.2gr as just over minimum, looks like it is MAX or slightly over to me.
If the Berrys is the hollow base that might allow for slightly heavier charges but 5.2 is on the High side IMO.

I completely agree with

I may try to bump up the 9mm slightly and see what happens. maybe .5gr increments and see how it goes.

As for the 115gr .40; I mis-typed and they are 155gr not 115. I seem to type that a lot ;-)
I attached the data I got from the site, i would think that 5.2gr would be ok, maybe I have to bump that load slightly as well?

 

[Robert101]

I consistently load below minimum published data with Unique Power in pistol calibers. (FYI I do not load low with Blue Dot in magnum cartridges). I don't mind the soot and what you get is a really nice and soft shooting round. I will load low until the semi-auto stops functioning or I think it is soft shooting enough, then up the charge weight to an arbitrary .2 grains and load more. I do this for all of my semi-auto pistols and load low on my revolvers as well. It does help to reduce flinching and you can then work up to higher loads and faster speeds as you progress. I use Unique because it is fluffy and not as dense as say Bullseye. I hear Trailboss is another good powder for this as well.

 

[Dudedog]

I may try to bump up the 9mm slightly and see what happens. maybe .5gr increments and see how it goes.

.5gr is a lot in 9mm. I would try smaller incs. Generally when testing I will go .2gr at a time in 9mm and then if I find one I like + or -.1 from there.
Again nothing wrong with the dirty cases if the load shoots well for you, but if they drive you nuts I would load 4.5 and 4.7 and see if it goes away and see which shoot best for you.
Maybe load 10 or 20 of each and test. More if it's a long way to the range.
For practice it turns out most of my loads that I like are right about 125 PF so they only need minor tweaking to give me a little extra ooommmpppff to make sure they will make 125 PF for matches.
This is usually somewhere around the middle of a given powders charge range.

I don't own a .40 so I'm not much help there but I would do the same for it. increase .2gr , dial in, then + or -.1. (stay under MAX of course)
Looking at Hodgdons data I would say load 5.3, 5.5 and maybe 5.7 and see what works best for you. All guns are different.

Unless you weigh every charge and your powder measure is perfect you will probably see a + or - .1 swing if you weighed 100 charges. HP38 generally meters well so <= .1 is what I would expect with thrown charges.

There is nothing wrong with being a bit below a listed minimum or at minimums long as it functions in your pistols, and is accurate and makes you happy. (which usually equates to proper function and accuracy)

 

[gunguy59]

.5gr is a lot in 9mm. I would try smaller incs. Generally when testing I will go .2gr at a time in 9mm and then if I find one I like + or -.1 from there.
Again nothing wrong with the dirty cases if the load shoots well for you, but if they drive you nuts I would load 4.5 and 4.7 and see if it goes away and see which shoot best for you.
Maybe load 10 or 20 of each and test. More if it's a long way to the range.
For practice it turns out most of my loads that I like are right about 125 PF so they only need minor tweaking to give me a little extra ooommmpppff to make sure they will make 125 PF for matches.
This is usually somewhere around the middle of a given powders charge range.

I don't own a .40 so I'm not much help there but I would do the same for it. increase .2gr , dial in, then + or -.1. (stay under MAX of course)
Looking at Hodgdons data I would say load 5.3, 5.5 and maybe 5.7 and see what works best for you. All guns are different.

Unless you weigh every charge and your powder measure is perfect you will probably see a + or - .1 swing if you weighed 100 charges. HP38 generally meters well so <= .1 is what I would expect with thrown charges.

There is nothing wrong with being a bit below a listed minimum or at minimums long as it functions in your pistols, and is accurate and makes you happy. (which usually equates to proper function and accuracy)

Thank you! Yeah. Right now it's a lengthy drive to the range so I like to have a few different loads per caliber to make it worth my while. Moving to some land soon so this will all change ..I'll get to shoot daily ;-)