CC's to Grains
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RetiredUSNChief
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"cc" is "cubic centimeters", a volume measurement.
"grains" is a measurement of mass, not volume. It's not the same as "weight", technically, but it's close enough to consider it that.
There isn't an exact equivalency for a couple of reasons, which center around how much powder you can fit into the Lee dipper. How much you can fit into the dipper depends on how finely the powder is ground and what the powder density is for each granual.
If you have a finely ground powder, of the same density as a coarsely ground powder, then you will fit more mass into your dipper than the coarser powder.
Same for a higher density powder of the same granular size...you'll be able to fit more mass into your dipper with the higher density.
So the answer is, really, "it depends".
Some reloading experts here can probably give you a good idea how many grains fit in such a dipper for a given powder. However, if you really want to know you should measure out a few dips and weigh them yourself on an inexpensive scale. Then you'll know the exact answer...as well as be how to dip consistent amounts. You should do this periodically, and for every type and batch of powder you load with.
"grains" is a measurement of mass, not volume. It's not the same as "weight", technically, but it's close enough to consider it that.
There isn't an exact equivalency for a couple of reasons, which center around how much powder you can fit into the Lee dipper. How much you can fit into the dipper depends on how finely the powder is ground and what the powder density is for each granual.
If you have a finely ground powder, of the same density as a coarsely ground powder, then you will fit more mass into your dipper than the coarser powder.
Same for a higher density powder of the same granular size...you'll be able to fit more mass into your dipper with the higher density.
So the answer is, really, "it depends".
Some reloading experts here can probably give you a good idea how many grains fit in such a dipper for a given powder. However, if you really want to know you should measure out a few dips and weigh them yourself on an inexpensive scale. Then you'll know the exact answer...as well as be how to dip consistent amounts. You should do this periodically, and for every type and batch of powder you load with.
Rojelio
Member
It depends on what powder you're using. Let me know what powder you're using, and I'll look at my Lee conversion chart and let you know.
can't reliably do it, even though old dippers were graduated in drams. A dram of black powder is 28 grains. Whatever, you need to weigh any charge thrown from an unknown measure. That said, if the measure contains ferrous or other sparking metals, you don't use it for black powder.
Skinny 1950
Member
Here is a conversion chart, on the far left are volume in cc's next volume in grains:
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
Since this is the Black Powder section of the forum, I assume we are talking about Black Powder.
As has already been discussed, there is really no such thing as Grains Volume. Grains are a measurement of mass or weight. Specifically, there are exactly 7000 grains to a pound. Grains Volume is a construct that was developed when Black Powder substitutes were first developed. Pyrodex was the first sub, and it weighed significantly less than real Black Powder. But the chemical energy of Pyrodex was pretty much the same as real Black Powder when measured by volume. So using an old fashioned adjustable powder measure if one filled it to the 30 grain mark, even though the charge weighed less than a Black Powder charge thrown by the same measure, the 'explosive' energy was the same.*
Cubic Centimeters is of course strictly a volume measurement.
Then again, not all Black Powder weighs the same. So 1 CC of one powder will not weigh the same as 1 CC of a different powder.
OK, enough blabbing. I keep a chart in my reloading notebook of what the grain measurements are for all my favorite powders and powder charges. I ain't dipped out .7CC charge of any powder in a long, long time. But my notebook says that .7 CC of Elephant FFg weighs 10.7 grains, and .7 CC of Elephant FFFg weighs 10.5 grains. Of course, Elephant ain't been made in a few years.
OK, I just ran downstairs and dipped out a few .7CC charges of Schuetzen FFg. They averaged 9.66 grains. See what I mean about different powders weighing different amounts? Sorry, I don't have any Goex on hand to weigh right now.
The other thing to be aware of is, the smaller the dipper, and .7CC is very small, the harder it is to get consistent charges from dip to dip. It has to do with how the powder stacks up in a small volume. More consistent charges are easier to accomplish with larger dippers.
You also need to be using the correct technique with a dipper. Don't tap it to try to settle the charge. And don't leave it heaping over the top. The correct technique with a dipper is to dip out the powder, then scrape it off level with the top of the dipper.
When you buy the Lee dipper set, a sliding rule comes with it that shows what all the charges are for any given dipper with a large variety of powders, Black Powder included. Do not take it as gospel. I have found discrepancies between my measurements and what is printed on the slide rule. As has already been said, the very best thing to do is to dip out a few charges yourself and weigh them. Average them up to get the average charge you are throwing, then you know what your technique will yield.
A very general rule of thumb is that 1.0 CC of Black Powder weighs approximately 15 grains. And I do mean approximately. My chart shows quite a lot of variation around 15 grains.
P.S. There are 16 ounces in a pound and 16 drams in an ounce. One ounce of powder weighs 437.5 grains. One dram weighs 27.34375 grains, if you do all the math.
*yeah, I know gunpowder does not explode, it was just a convenient way to say it.
Since this is the Black Powder section of the forum, I assume we are talking about Black Powder.
As has already been discussed, there is really no such thing as Grains Volume. Grains are a measurement of mass or weight. Specifically, there are exactly 7000 grains to a pound. Grains Volume is a construct that was developed when Black Powder substitutes were first developed. Pyrodex was the first sub, and it weighed significantly less than real Black Powder. But the chemical energy of Pyrodex was pretty much the same as real Black Powder when measured by volume. So using an old fashioned adjustable powder measure if one filled it to the 30 grain mark, even though the charge weighed less than a Black Powder charge thrown by the same measure, the 'explosive' energy was the same.*
Cubic Centimeters is of course strictly a volume measurement.
Then again, not all Black Powder weighs the same. So 1 CC of one powder will not weigh the same as 1 CC of a different powder.
OK, enough blabbing. I keep a chart in my reloading notebook of what the grain measurements are for all my favorite powders and powder charges. I ain't dipped out .7CC charge of any powder in a long, long time. But my notebook says that .7 CC of Elephant FFg weighs 10.7 grains, and .7 CC of Elephant FFFg weighs 10.5 grains. Of course, Elephant ain't been made in a few years.
OK, I just ran downstairs and dipped out a few .7CC charges of Schuetzen FFg. They averaged 9.66 grains. See what I mean about different powders weighing different amounts? Sorry, I don't have any Goex on hand to weigh right now.
The other thing to be aware of is, the smaller the dipper, and .7CC is very small, the harder it is to get consistent charges from dip to dip. It has to do with how the powder stacks up in a small volume. More consistent charges are easier to accomplish with larger dippers.
You also need to be using the correct technique with a dipper. Don't tap it to try to settle the charge. And don't leave it heaping over the top. The correct technique with a dipper is to dip out the powder, then scrape it off level with the top of the dipper.
When you buy the Lee dipper set, a sliding rule comes with it that shows what all the charges are for any given dipper with a large variety of powders, Black Powder included. Do not take it as gospel. I have found discrepancies between my measurements and what is printed on the slide rule. As has already been said, the very best thing to do is to dip out a few charges yourself and weigh them. Average them up to get the average charge you are throwing, then you know what your technique will yield.
A very general rule of thumb is that 1.0 CC of Black Powder weighs approximately 15 grains. And I do mean approximately. My chart shows quite a lot of variation around 15 grains.
P.S. There are 16 ounces in a pound and 16 drams in an ounce. One ounce of powder weighs 437.5 grains. One dram weighs 27.34375 grains, if you do all the math.
*yeah, I know gunpowder does not explode, it was just a convenient way to say it.
I was looking at this from a volume perspective as that's what my adjustable powder measure is giving me, especially using subs.
I used a 380 ACP case as I have written down what it has been shown to hold and then weighed it as well. I filled the dipper and leveled it off with the spent case before I weighed it.
If 10 grns volume for a 380 ACP case is accurate than it seems the .7 cc dipper is roughly 8 grns. A 9mm case is said to hold 13 grns, and comparing the left over space I'd guess I was ~2 grns from full on the 380 case.
I don't need to be exact per say as none of the measures will be exact. I just felt this little dipper might be handy to use for measuring duplex charges, and I needed to know how much of my overall charge it was taking up.
I am using 3F Triple 7 as well as Olde Eynsford now. I'm also considering Blackhorn 209.
Thanks for the input and lesson guys!
I used a 380 ACP case as I have written down what it has been shown to hold and then weighed it as well. I filled the dipper and leveled it off with the spent case before I weighed it.
If 10 grns volume for a 380 ACP case is accurate than it seems the .7 cc dipper is roughly 8 grns. A 9mm case is said to hold 13 grns, and comparing the left over space I'd guess I was ~2 grns from full on the 380 case.
I don't need to be exact per say as none of the measures will be exact. I just felt this little dipper might be handy to use for measuring duplex charges, and I needed to know how much of my overall charge it was taking up.
I am using 3F Triple 7 as well as Olde Eynsford now. I'm also considering Blackhorn 209.
Thanks for the input and lesson guys!
MCgunner
Member
A chart came with my dipper assortment, but it's out in the shop and I don't wanna go out there right now. It gives approximate weights for each dipper for a variety of powders including all granulations of black powder.
Ooops, looks like you has it covered. Only thing, don't think you can interpolate the volume accurately. IIRC, something like a 1.6CC is 30 grains, would not interpolate to 15 grains for a 1.0 scoop.
I have a red .7cc scoop that came in a Lee loader or something. I use it to measure cornmeal filler after dumping 30 grains powder in the cylinder.
Ooops, looks like you has it covered. Only thing, don't think you can interpolate the volume accurately. IIRC, something like a 1.6CC is 30 grains, would not interpolate to 15 grains for a 1.0 scoop.
I have a red .7cc scoop that came in a Lee loader or something. I use it to measure cornmeal filler after dumping 30 grains powder in the cylinder.
Patocazador
Member
Weigh it. It can be duplicated each time. You have to first determine the equivalet weight for a substitute compared to black powder of a certain grain size. For example: 0.7 grs of Blackhorn 209 is equivalent to 1.0 grains of 3FG black powder.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I already explained to you, different powders weigh different amounts. It is not like Smokeless where you can depend on 5 grains of Unique to take up the same amount of space, year in and year out. Different Black Powder manufacturers use slightly different methods of making their powders. Look at my data.
.7 CC of Elephant FFg weighs 10.7 grains, and .7 CC of Elephant FFFg weighs 10.5 grains. Then I dipped out some Schuetzen FFg and .7 CC weighed 9.66 grains.
If you are dipping it out, and your measurement does not agree with a chart published someplace, and you are using a good technique to dip it out, then the chart is wrong and you are right.
And as I tried to explain to you, when you weigh it out, it is grains. Period. Your scale is not calibrated in grains volume. There is no such thing.
As for whether or not to measure Black Powder by weight or by volume, this argument has been going on for decades. When you use any sort of modern powder measure to portion out repeated charges of powder, whether it is Smokeless or Black, the powder measure works by allowing a certain volume of powder into a closed vessel. So technically, ALL powder is measured by volume, unless you are actually weighing each charge. Which some folks do.
But whether you measure Black Powder by volume or weigh it, in the end it makes no difference. You can do either. The key is consistency.
Patocazador
Member
Stop and look back at the previous responses. The same WEIGHT of different powders (eg. Unique and Bullseye) occupy different volumes. The Lee measure is just an approximation but it names each powder in a chart and that same .7 "grain" (not true) dipper may hold .8 gr. of one powder but .5 of a different, less dense powder. Forget the dipper and weigh them.
BCRider
Member
There's much ado about the whole "by weight" and "by volume". But in the end the "volume" measures are still about the "weight". It's simply that black powder was so consistent that they were able, and still do, make volume measures graduated in amounts that SHOULD correspond closely to the weight of the same charge in black powder.
This all came out in an older thread here in the black powder forum. The point is that it's ALL about the weight. That's the ONLY PROPER way to do it. It's just that the volume measurements are supposed to mimic the weight by volume thing.
This all came out in an older thread here in the black powder forum. The point is that it's ALL about the weight. That's the ONLY PROPER way to do it. It's just that the volume measurements are supposed to mimic the weight by volume thing.
Yea...I'm afraid I must not (and still don't really) understand this volume/weight thing, which is why I let it go. I felt I was frustrating people and coming across something like stubborn.
My understanding is that we can't go by weight, and use volume because there are many different powders to use. And my understanding is that the max charges given were for volume.
My understanding is that we can't go by weight, and use volume because there are many different powders to use. And my understanding is that the max charges given were for volume.
Jim Watson
Member
A .7 cc scoop should hold 10.5 grns. My .7 cc scoop didn't fill the case. It was closer to 8 grns.
Lee is very risk averse. None of their dippers or cavities hold as much as the chart says. I have read of loaders going up two cavities on the disk measure to get the weight desired. Dippers are no different.
Calibrate by weight and move along. You DO have a scale, don't you?
Lee is very risk averse. None of their dippers or cavities hold as much as the chart says. I have read of loaders going up two cavities on the disk measure to get the weight desired. Dippers are no different.
Calibrate by weight and move along. You DO have a scale, don't you?
Driftwood Johnson
Member
What???
Are you talking Smokeless or Black Powder? I'm still not clear about that.
Max charges for Smokeless Powders are ALWAYS listed in grains and grains are a unit of MASS or WEIGHT!
Period!
That's why you buy a scale when you start loading your own cartridges. You do own a scale I hope?
I'm speaking of black powder and their substitutes.
My understanding has been that in the beginning it was by weight, but that it was shifted to volume as nothing weighs the same any longer, which is why our adjustable measures are set to volume now.
I do know that smokeless is by weight and not volume.
I do have a Hornady scale.
I wanted to use a Lee smokeless .7 cc scoop for BP uses. I suppose I wasn't very clear. Sorry.
My understanding has been that in the beginning it was by weight, but that it was shifted to volume as nothing weighs the same any longer, which is why our adjustable measures are set to volume now.
I do know that smokeless is by weight and not volume.
I do have a Hornady scale.
I wanted to use a Lee smokeless .7 cc scoop for BP uses. I suppose I wasn't very clear. Sorry.
This may help with the weight/volume thing.
There is an old saying, "A pint's a pound the world around". It refers to water and is to help grade school students to remember the ratio of a volume of water to a weight of water. So, since there are eight pints in a gallon, a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds.
But, a gallon of gasoline weighs only 6 pounds. "Say what?" you say, "its a gallon". Well, the density of gasoline is less than the density of water where density is the weight of something divided by the volume occupied by that weight.
So, gun powder has a similar relationship where cc's (cubic centimeters) is the volume and grains is the weight.
Different powders have different densities so the same volume of two different powders will probably not weigh the same for the same volume.
There are charts that list the densities of the various powders so that, in theory, one can calculate what a weight certain size scoop will scoop for a particular powder. Unfortunately, the densities of powders are not vary consistent so weighing the charge when getting started is important.
I know enough about black powder measurement to know I cannot speak intelligently about what a dram is and how it relates to grains of weight and cc's of volume. But, there will be a similar density, volume and weight relationship.
Hope this helps and clears the mud a little.
I thought that the BP measures all measured volume? It thought that when my adjustable measure was set to say 40 grains it was by volume. I've read over and over on some of these forums that any talk of grains in relation to muzzleloaders was by volume and not weight since they don't coincide. Is this not correct?
[email protected]
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I have been shooting black powder guns for over 50 years. I have always used
Weight, not volume. I want to know how many grains of powder I am shooting.
Not just guessing at it. I am a competive shooter and have been shooting in
National competition for 30 years. All the slug gun shooters weigh their powder
Chargers. They have their scales right there on the loading bench. Every charge
Is weighed. I know many rifle shooters who do the same. Most pistol shooters
Do also. The weighed chargers are put in viles and taken to the range. That is
How I shoot. Take a trip to Friendship sometime. You would learn a lot. They
Would laugh at some of the nonsense you read on this Fourm. But do as you
may. As long as your not hurting yourself or anybody else, it's OK. There is a
whole other world out there that shoots black powder and it's nothing like you
Read on here. Hate to come down so hard buts that's the facts.
Phil
Weight, not volume. I want to know how many grains of powder I am shooting.
Not just guessing at it. I am a competive shooter and have been shooting in
National competition for 30 years. All the slug gun shooters weigh their powder
Chargers. They have their scales right there on the loading bench. Every charge
Is weighed. I know many rifle shooters who do the same. Most pistol shooters
Do also. The weighed chargers are put in viles and taken to the range. That is
How I shoot. Take a trip to Friendship sometime. You would learn a lot. They
Would laugh at some of the nonsense you read on this Fourm. But do as you
may. As long as your not hurting yourself or anybody else, it's OK. There is a
whole other world out there that shoots black powder and it's nothing like you
Read on here. Hate to come down so hard buts that's the facts.
Phil
Yes, that's correct.
Black powder charges are specified using a volume metric called 'grains'.
Smokeless powder charges are specified using a mass metric called 'grains'.
If you know what kind of powder you're measuring, and you damn well better, then you know whether you are using the volume metric or the mass metric.
If you are using real black powder, there's really no practical difference between the mass and volume metric results; 100 grains (mass) of real black powder is very nearly (but not exactly) 100 grains (volume). If you measure out 100 grains (volume) of real black powder using a volume measure and then weigh that charge any variation from 100 grains (mass) is most likely due to an inaccurate volume measure - they are notoriously inaccurate devices.
People who weigh their real black powder charges do so for precision; you will get more consistent results using weight. Yes, the slug gun guys use a scale and weigh their charges on the line. Most, but not all, of the guys I observe on the offhand line use a volume measure. None of the people on the woods walk weigh their charges. When shooting for pleasure at the range I use a volume measure; when shooting for precision I weigh my charges in advance and use loading tubes on the line.
The black powder community has used this faux metric called 'grains by volume' for many, many years as a matter of convenience, counting on the nearly 1 for 1 relationship between weight and volume of real black powder. That doesn't make it 'wrong' or 'right', it's just what we do.
Then some jerk had to come along and introduce synthetic black powder and throw the whole thing into a cocked hat. The smokeless powder community has been well aware for years that different powders have different densities, so when specifying a load it is necessary to include the brand of powder; 3 grains of Unique will not give the same results as 3 grains of Bullseye (I think). However, the synthetic black powders (excepting, of course, 777 - there always has to be an exception) were designed to give the same results as real black powder when measured by volume. So, the black powder folks just continue to use their volume metric, driving some folks mad with frustration.
Jim Watson
Member
Disagree. The metric of powder charge specification is grains Avoirdupois - weight.
It is usual to measure powder whether black or smokeless by volume for convenience.
"Grains volume" is a bogus concept apparently devised by 20th century gunzine writers.
As khwi says and mykeal goes on to point out, serious black powder shooters follow the advice of the Sharps Rifle Co, ca 1876,
"For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."
I shoot BPCR and I weigh my powder charges. Some few shooters measure theirs volumetrically but they are using precision measures and careful technique... just like benchrest shooters with smokeless. Not with a horn tip like Dan'l Boone or a telescopic brass measure from the 19th century.
Oh, by the way "A pint's a pound the world around." is a gross simplification or just plain wrong, depending on your location. In the first place a US gallon of water weighs approximately 8 1/3 lbs (My outfit always used 8.34 lb/gal, which is correct at about 50 deg F.), so the old saw is off by 4% to start with.
Back when the sun never set on the British Empire, an Imperial gallon was 10 lbs of water and a pint 20 ounces so you are out by a full 20% making the rule of thumb pretty useless.
Makes you wish for the French System with all them millies and centipedes and kilohoobies... almost.
And as I said, Lee measures and dippers are molded with a great deal of conservative minus tolerance to the point they are not much more accurate than "grains volume." The main application I know is the SASS minimum of 1 CC of black or fake per round to be able to enter the black powder division there. About enough for a .38 Short on the frontier.
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I've read somewhere some time back that some sort of black powder weighed it's "equivalent" of volume. But can that hold true with all BP's, granted they are all of the same granulation? Does 3F Goex weigh what Olde E or Swiss does?
150 years back or more did they weigh a charge and then create something to hold that amount so as to measure out their charge in the field?
I can understand weighing charges for competition or long range hunting. Maybe even small game hunting as that head is a small target!
Having weighed what my adjustable measure dropped at 20 grns (lowest setting) I came up with:
Pyrodex P = 19.2 grns
Olde E 3F = 24.7 grns
Triple 7 3F = 19.5 grns
150 years back or more did they weigh a charge and then create something to hold that amount so as to measure out their charge in the field?
I can understand weighing charges for competition or long range hunting. Maybe even small game hunting as that head is a small target!
Having weighed what my adjustable measure dropped at 20 grns (lowest setting) I came up with:
Pyrodex P = 19.2 grns
Olde E 3F = 24.7 grns
Triple 7 3F = 19.5 grns
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