CCW: How Quick is Your Draw?

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But I'm curious as to whether draw speed has anything to do with what gun you conceal carry, and how you carry it.
Yes & Yes, I carry with a strong side belt holster that allows me to get a proper grip quickly. I have a box full of holsters that just don't work.
This past summer I have carried my Sig P365 nearly every day. The 365 and my LC9s are the smallest guns I have found that I can draw and shoot reasonably fast with acceptable accuracy. In the winter months I carry a larger gun more often, primarily because they are easier to shoot well and draw quickly.
 
If you need a gun in your hand, it better be in your hand.
Obviously, one cannot fire a gun until it is in one's hand. But in a defensive situation, there are important limitations on when you can lawfully get it there. Doing so timely depends on the draw.

To me, at least, situational awareness means that I will have the weapon in my hand, or at least have my hand on the weapon, before a shoot/no shoot decision needs to be made.
You alluded to that once, and I cautioned you about it. Yet you continue with that awful advice. Stop now.

We do not want others to think that it is permissible to do that.

One may not lawfully draw or display a firearm without adequate justification. In most jurisdictions, the use of deadly force would have to be justified. In a handful of states, the threshold is lower.

One may decide to surreptitiously put one's hand on a firearm that is in one's pocket, but one's action must not be detected and recognized for what it is.

Perhaps I'm naive, but that's the way I see it.
Wise up. Read this.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/brandishing-and-when-can-i-draw.731200/

The consequences of displaying a gun without lawful justification can be very severe. Even if you are able to avoid a trial, your legal expenses can be vey high.

But if you need a gun in your hand, and it's not there already, you need to do something about that right?
And that's where the draw comes in.
 
Smooth is not necessarily fast. I have had classes with 3 and 4 second smooth drawing folks that are a full 1.5 -2.5 seconds behind other shooters on the first shot. Just because you are smooth does not mean that you are fast. It just means that you are smooth. The phrase is great for helping people to learn to draw better, but does not necessarily reflect reality.

The phrase "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" is great if you have an entire line of cadets or boots who have minimal or non-existent gun-handling skills and you are trying to give them a bare level of competence without anyone collecting extra holes on the firing line. And it's a useful mindset once you are already fast and are merely trying to get your current level of skill on demand.

It is just a freaking lie when it comes to actually getting fast. No amount of driving around a full-sized racetrack at 45 mph, no matter how smooth, is ever going to teach the driver how to get around it at 180 mph. You cannot learn to swing a baseball bat fast without trying to swing it fast. You cannot increase the tempo at which you can play a piece of music without pushing the metronome click faster. You have to push beyond your comfort level if you want to change your capabilities. People have little or no difficulty accepting that this is true in most other contexts... I don't know why people are so eager to believe that things are magically different when it comes to handling a gun.

You have to ask: what are you trying to do? Are you trying to learn to go fast? In that case, you will need to try to go fast. Are you merely trying to deploy whatever speed you have based on your prior training/practice? In that case, smooth is probably reliable, and the speed is whatever you have earned in your prior training.

But if you're not trying for speed in your training, you won't have earned any speed, and you won't get it by concentrating on smoothness.
 
While I think getting a pistol quickly is nice and all, you really think you are going to outdraw a rampage shooter

I actually think this is likely to be quite easy. For the most part, "rampage shooters" are only shooting one person at a time. If you're in a movie theater of 40 people, you have a 1-in-40 chance of being the first person shot. In that case, yeah, you're probably doomed. If you're not one of the first 3-4 people shot, you should have ample time to get your gun out and start getting hits.
 
Even with situational awareness sometimes things happen in that moment you lapse, you know Murphy's Law. Handling you equipment with relative ease and efficiency is important, but might not make as big of a difference as you think.

I saw this the other day, maybe here on another post. He used the the ole "fake heart attack" trick to save his life. Now that I am getting older I think I am going to incorporate it in my arsenal.

 
I have always trained drawing duty guns from a strong side holster at 8-9 o'clock (lefty). Now retired, I'm pretty uncomfortable about being able to draw my LCP from a front pocket.

It's in a kydex holster to properly orient it, but I still have no my faith in my ability to withdraw it quickly. Aside from possibly being deep inside, the location changes somewhat depending on whether I'm wearing jeans or shorts, and which particular shorts. Not 100% happy with it.

I'd prefer a belt holster, but that would negate the idea of not printing in a t-shirt. Besides, if I were to carry in a side holster, I might as well carry something more substantial. Winter's coming.... as they said on Thrones, so that problem will soon end. lol
 
I don't know specifically how fast I can draw from concealmeant but I know that every time I've had to qualify with my handgun I've been able to draw and fire within the allotted time. Which I think was 2 seconds.

I always practice drawing from concealmeant because that's how I carry the gun.

I've said this before but I used to have a job checking electrical substations in the middle of nowhere. I would walk around the substations and practice a 4 point draw from a level 2 retention holster. I did it over and over and over and over and over and over again all night long. I never tried to do it fast I just tried to do it right.

One night I was loading up my car to go to work when someone decided to start a gunfight at the end of my parking lot. I had ZERO warning that it was going to happen. As soon as I heard the first shot I remember being grateful for my body armor and consciously deciding to take cover behind the engine block of my car as opposed to the trunk. I hit the ground behind my car and that's when I realized that I had already drawn my gun.

I don't know if "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" is true and I don't know if you have to practice fast to be fast. I DO know that muscle memory increases speed.
 
Strong side, 7 yards, no concealment, hands at rest, slow split is due to head shot transition, I was practicing a fast to slow precision cadence:

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Honestly IMHO fast draw doesn't matter, but fast 1st round hits do, and that's why I believe it's worthwhile to practice. I'm about .5-.75 slower with a cover garment, strong side, slightly faster from AIWB. I did take a defensive shooting class a couple years ago which consisted of 4 range days spread out over a month. Every day started with a "performance on demand" drill of:

1 shot, timed, from holster, no concealment, 7 yards, at a paper plate (standard sized) with a goal of 1.75 seconds. A surprising number of students couldn't do it in under 2 seconds, and there were multiple misses. I'm guessing the majority of the guys/gals that couldn't make the "standard' would be relying on better SA to prevent having to do the same sort of "performance on demand' in real life.
 
I am going to touch on both of these as they are oft-repeated mantras that aren't necessarily based on fact.

Smooth is not necessarily fast. I have had classes with 3 and 4 second smooth drawing folks that are a full 1.5 -2.5 seconds behind other shooters on the first shot. Just because you are smooth does not mean that you are fast. It just means that you are smooth. The phrase is great for helping people to learn to draw better, but does not necessarily reflect reality.

Obviously, you don't want errant shots that aren't on the threat target. Down range danger caused by errant shots can be devastating to innocent parties. Be that as it may, you CAN miss fast enough to win. Heck, people manage to win without even firing a shot.

But the part you left out was the minimal clothing required where I live, so smooth is fast and on the edge of out of control.
 
To me, at least, situational awareness means that I will have the weapon in my hand, or at least have my hand on the weapon, before a shoot/no shoot decision needs to be made.

I should have quoted you as situational awareness covers it all.
 
I'm reminded of reading Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner" written in the early 60's I believe. Still available and you can get the full text on line. Has a chapter on fast draw and also includes a tutorial on how to make practice ammo with wax bullet and only primer for propellant. Plastic or maybe rubber bullets are also available on line. I bought some a couple years ago on a whim (not very expensive) but haven't loaded any yet. I guess I kinda lost interest
 
Could you give us a couple examples? I don't really understand what you're getting at.

I really don't have any examples. Nor do I see myself or very few making a CNS shot.

AFA, as a belt bomber with a dead man; how many can deliver a CNS (central nervous system) shot with the bad guy's finger on a dead man switch; well. just who is kidding who? There are two CNS shots, the Medulla Oblongata and the neutral motor strips. With a pistol who is kidding who even with a rifle very few can make the shot.
Choose a distance and shoot at an egg; hitting it is what is required to make a CNS stop.
 
Being "Quick Draw McGraw" doesn't help situational awareness.

Quick draw only helps when you're aware that you may need to draw. And in that instance, your hand should already be on the butt of your weapon.

I agree that "playing cowboy" is fun, and can in some limited ways enhance gun handling skills.

But I'm not at all convinced that it's even 10 percent as important as some " professional trainers" would have you believe.

I guess I'm still "old school"in that I am more concerned with how straight I shoot rather than hoe fast I draw.

Of course, gun games have different rules and priorities.
It might be a cowboy thing for some.

I heard a man say one time, "A man should KNOW his limitations." I know MINE. I believe any one who carries a gun SHOULD KNOW THEIRS. I guarantee you will be surprised, if you are surprised and alive or surprised and dead, I guess is up to you.
 
That's why I don't like pants pocket carry.

I don't either, but most of my work attire requirements necessitate it. Today I have a couple of meetings with some clients. I am in jeans (I'm a contractor. No one expects slacks) with a tucked in button up Oxford. Anything IWB is going show. Actually everything prints in these jeans except a mini revolver. I've got a NAA Black Widow in my left hand pocket that comes out pretty fast...for out a pocket that is. I made a leather holster that breaks up the lines of the gun and I keep a set if egg shaped grips on it instead of the big chunky ones. The leather is flesh side out with a couple of strips of skateboard tape glued to it so it stays put. The inside is finished smooth and slick so I can at least yank the gun out with one finger. Not ideal, but I can get it into action faster than a micro .380 in a similar pocket.

I tried it at the range yesterday and using the gun as a true belly gun I could slip the gun out and level it off to fire from the hip at three yards and empty it in just a couple seconds. My grouping was horrible and 8" in size, but for a SA .22 mag fired in rapid succession sporting a 2" barrel from the hip, I figure thats about all I can expect. I tried this way as I figured the chances of me drawing down with the little puppy would be slim, and I would be more likely to have to draw and fire unaimed at the guts of an attacker.
 
I tested this for students in a class the other day.

I carry a sign P239 AIWB.

With a polo shirt cover garment, I am putting 1 round on a 8.5x11 paper at 7yrds in about 1.10 seconds.

Sometimes a hair faster, sometimes a hair slower.
But I also botched the whole process at least once.

The point of the exercise was that CONSISTANCY is key.

Sure, your best time is XYZ, but can you do it consistently and the under stress.

A fun drill we sometimes do is put two shooters on the line. At the beep draw and fire one round. Hits are scored and add time to your overall.

The person with the slower time steps back and a new shooter gives it a go.

Eventually even the fastest draw in the class screws the pooch. Usually after only a few goes.

Be fast, sure, but by God be consistent under stress.
 
The point of the exercise was that CONSISTANCY is key.


Be fast, sure, but by God be consistent under stress.
I think you touched on the most important part here.

And its something you just dont get, by talking about it. It takes a lot of work, and on a fairly regular basis. Same goes for the shooting part. That part is pretty important too. :thumbup:

If you dont practice, both dry and live fire, I dont think youre going to see much good happen under stress. And for some, just drawing a loaded gun from a holster on the range can be a stressful thing. Especially the first time.

If youre waiting for the real deal to be your first time, Im thinking you might want to reassess things.

As far as the smooth is fast thing...well, yea, it is and it isnt. What I think it encourages is, the constant practice necessary, to get to be both. You wont get either, if you dont practice on a regular basis.

The whole point of all of it is, to be well enough practiced that you dont have to think about doing it. It just happens when you think it.
 
With the laser target system i have. Wife timed me. I am around 1.25 seconds to 2. Depending on what i am wearing. I always wear a t shirt, untucked and a crossbreed holster. A hoodie will add a little time. And a winter jacket adds more time.
 
People often shoot themselves in the leg or worse trying for fast draws, be careful out there.

This is a very real concern. I worked out all the mechanics for the draw I described in the OP, with an unloaded gun at home. Then I tried it with the first chamber empty, and the second loaded (this was not at home). Dry fire for the first shot, then live fire for the trigger pull after that. My finger doesn't go onto the trigger until the gun is pointing down and in front of me (angled forward and clear of my body parts) just after clearing the holster. As I rotate the gun up I pull the trigger back, so that the gun fires as my wrist stops with the barrel level.

Other draws, from different carry positions, will call for different timing to the trigger and the trigger pull itself. But a double action revolver from a strong side draw seems pretty intuitive, at least to me.
 
The short answer: It's never fast enough. But the real question is the time it takes to get accurate shot(s) on target. At some point, we all plateau. We'll call that x.x seconds. Now what? Now we make it harder- incorporating turns, after a sprint or pushups, in the dark, on your back, in a rainstorm when you are the only one hard core enough to be at the range, immerse your hands in ice water, after having a vinegar/water solution sprayed into your eyes, now- all of the above- rinse, repeat.....
 
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