Chamber expansion in a Smith & Wesson

[Old Fuff]

Again, if you ask Smith & Wesson about expanded chambers they will explain that if that is the case, the cylinder walls have been over stressed and weakend, and for that reason the only repair that should be considered is to replace the cylinder. This would be especially true if a center-fire Magnum revolver was involved, because of the higher pressure Magnum cartridges are loaded to.

While polishing with a hone (which would be the right way to do it) might reduce the bulge to the point of making extraction possible, it would not address the core issue, which is that the cylinder may no longer be safe.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

OK so we evidently did decide, sight unseen ,you definitely have an expanded cylinder.

Any time a guy gives me the correct name for a tool I'll give him the benefit of the doubt,
he also knows how it works. I would never presume to tell him he didn't. Same as I wouldn't diagnose a revolver with ESP. Even 4 or 5 guys ESP.

I will continue to polish chambers on my guns with out the approval of the board. If you think you will get into trouble polishing cylinders then dont'. I thought that would go without saying. You know what you can and cant do better than I would.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Ruger,

The expanded chamber issue began with the OP who wrote, "I was told I had 'Chamber expansion' and the cylinder needed to be replaced ... has anyone heard of this, and is replacing the cylinder my only option?"

You expressed skepticism, along with a good deal of sarcasm directed toward those who responded that the situation could happen. I don't think anyone said that there were no other causes of sticking cases, and in fact Fuff said just that. All of us said that expanded chambers are rare and that further checking would be needed before any definite answer could be given.

We did not decide any thing "sight unseen"; we did agree that the condition is one of several possibilities. Obviously, only a personal inspection of the gun would settle the issue.

You, who refuse to even admit that possibility, now choose to again unlimber your sarcasm and inform us that we are presumptious in even discussing a possibility that you, in your wisdom, do not accept. That is just plain silly.

As for polishing chambers, you certainly don't need "approval"; you can polish and grind and drill to your heart's content and no one will say anything. I just hope no one is unfortunate enough to buy one of your guns.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

In case it's not apparent...

Jim Keenan has probably had his hands in more Smith & Wesson revolvers than most of us have had our hands on. I'm a pretty fair hand at working on Smiths, but...and I've said this before...if I ever get in over my head with one, I'll light up Jim's PM box like a pinball machine.

I can probably say the same for the Old Fuff.

As far as "Board Approval" before tackling your own gun...We really don't care. People come onto this board for answers and advice from experienced people...and there are many "ringers" here. People who fit the catefory of: "He's forgotten more than most of us will ever know."

We supply those answers and give the best advice that we can under the circumstances...along with a word of caution in some instances, and that's about all we can do. What anyone decides after that is completely his or her call. We'd much rather have someone come back and say: "I shoulda listened." than "Why didn't you warn me?"

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

You are of course correct gentlemen, I read the OP also, he said he was told, did not specify by who, also said there was not a gunsmith in his town.

I was not as ready to accept blindly what "somebody" told him, at least who ever "somebody " is had the advantage of looking at it.

My wording was I would not presume, only, anything after that was presumed by someone else

I dont see how a second opinion in amongst 20 or 30 others is always so threatening.

I also assumed some people reading these posts, may have just found the forum like me.

I have not been in a test tube for the last 6o years. In spite of the wannabe/teenager cracks.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Mr Keenan , I am sorry I have never heard of you. I did not mean my opinion in anyway to negate yours. As far as bona fides, Tuners high esteam for you is good enough for me.

I have talked extensively with Mr Tuner, and I am certain of his sincerity, I assumed you all were giving the best advice you could. So was I.

While I'm thinking about it, one of the question was if who ever was reading it had ever heard of or seen it. I have not. I am not going to say I have,until I have. I also said I could see it being a tempering issue with the cylinder, that to my mind is an admission it could.

I also said I learned new things everyday.

It seems these threads have a normal course, they follow doesnt really matter what its about. And I agree it would be more normal if I didnt share my opinion, or assume anyone cares what it is.














It is still my position that it is difficult to diagnose something you cant see.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is still my position that it is difficult to diagnose something you can’t see.

Absolutely true! That’s why we (Tuner, Jim Keenan and I collectively that is) went to the trouble to explain what an expanded chamber was, what likely caused it, and why the condition could be serious.

Then we also made the point that expanded chambers were not common, and a number of other things might be responsible for hard extraction.

spm then followed some earlier advise and did a wire-brush cleaning job on his chambers to the point they were spotless. It didn't help. Given that S&W bores, reams, polishes, and burnish Magnum chambers it seemed unlikely they were rough, or at least that the roughness missed notice.

So the possibility of expanded chambers increased, and if so, polishing wasn't a good idea for reasons I previously brought up.

Last but not least, because advice given over the Internet can (and often is) questionable, one can always call the gun manufacturer and get authoritative answers. I presume that you would agree that if there were such a thing as expanded chambers someone at the Smith & Wesson factory would know about it.

So maybe you, and any others that have doubts should make a phone call...

(800) 331-0852
(413) 781-8300

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I can not make this any clearer. I BELIEVE YOU. I still have not seen it. That is what he asked in a OPEN query. If it was addressed to you ,I would not have answered.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is still my position that it is difficult to diagnose something you can’t see.

I can not make this any clearer. I BELIEVE YOU. I still have not seen it.

Unless you are into shooting heavy handloads, I don't think you are going to see it. As for diagnosing something that we can't actually see, that's done all the time - based on information provided by someone who has posted a question concerning an issue. The provided diagnose - which may be right or wrong - is based on someone's knowledge and experience on the subject, which can be anything from next-to-nothing to considerable. Over time regular members learn who's opinions and advise can be trusted, and who should be ignored.

In this thread, three of this forum's "recognized authorities" in the area under discussion provided information on the subject of expanded chambers, without coming outright and saying that was indeed the problem - because they obviously couldn't say for sure without personally examining the revolver. Therefore the bottom line of their advise was that the gun be returned to the maker, who could examine it, and make a determination of what the problem was - expanded chambers or not.

A response along the line of, "I've never seen or heard of such a thing, but you should..." isn't particularly helpful, and in making this observation it is not my intention to pick on you alone.

Or anyway, that's the way I see it.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I have lost interest in this discusion. I have composed a couple of responses, discarded them for various reasons. I did not mean to sound like I was picking on Mr Keenan. The truth is I have never heard of any of you.

 

[spm]

Expanded chambers in a Smith and Wesson

Wow! A lively discussion indeed. I must have left some details out of my OP, and for that I apologize. Let me begin, again.

I have a S&W 19-5 that has suddenly developed a problem extracting magnum and hot 38 loads. It seems to be three chambers that stick. I was told by S&W cust serv that it was chamber expansion and it meant the cylinder was "Shot out" and should be replaced. They said it was safe to shoot, but I am still concerned. Besides, having a magnum revolver that won't shoot magnum loads makes no sense to me.

Not having heard of this problem, nor had anyone at my range, I opened this discussion. Not that I don't trust S&W, I just wanted to hear if anyone had experienced this. As I said, we do not have a gunsmith in my town, and I am certainly not anything close to that.

A lot of good advice and opinions have been presented, and for that, I thank everyone who has contributed. I will try to address those questions that have been asked. I do not hand-load, so all rounds are mfr. To the gentleman who said he wouldn't have 19 as a gift, I respect your opinion but I like the gun. It shoots well, and not knowing it's history, I will give it the benefit of the doubt. I tried several of the suggestions; extensive cleaning, etc., but when you get into honing and polishing, that isn't within my skill-set and I fear I will do more harm than good. Don't own an inside caliper and don't know how to use one. I can't see any bulge, but with my old eyes, that doesn't mean it isn't there. I agree that lubing the ammo is probably not a good idea, as it attracts dirt. I understand no one can make a diagnosis without seeing the gun, but I'm new to blogging and barely know how to post let alone add pics. I think I covered most of them. Whew!

So, I will send the pistol into S&W, and I will post here again when I get it back and let you all know the results.

Again, thank you all for your help.
spm

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Not that I think anyone on this thread give two figs for my opinion. But in light of this latest revelation I feel honor bound to say that you gentle men are correct. If I had any idea it was S&W that told him that I wouldn't have responded at all. I have a new found respect for your extra sensory powers.

spm, on the honing and polishing subject no one agrees with me anyway. It might be that they greatly overestimate my patience or attention span in their certainty it would ruin it. I have never damaged a revolver by polishing it.

 

[larryh1108]

Do you have any idea how many rounds were put thru it? I also have a 19-5 and stick with factory only ammo and am curious as to how many rounds are too many for a 19-5. I have a .38 to shoot .38s so I only shoot .357 magnums thru it. Also, i don't want a carbon ring from the .38s either. Just curious...

 

[oldfool]

"how many rounds are too many for a 19-5....I only shoot .357 magnums thru it"

all 357 cartridges are not created equal
if you stick with generic "whitebox" or similar handloads, preferably 158 gr or similar weight, you will likely wear your trigger finger out first
but if ye must run HOT HOT HOT, enjoy it while you can, and plan on replacing it before very long
(think about 38+P, Ks are pert near perfect +P guns)

 

[bigedp51]

S&W and many firearms manufactures have "service centers" that are "authorized" to fix and repair firearms. In todays economy I wouldn't trust anyone at one of these sites to make a diagnoses and give it long distance on the phone.

You can polish any chamber with J&B bore paste and Kroil, and a shotgun mop with a battery powered drill and NOT do any damage to the chamber. This isn't to say a hammer and chisel mechanic can't screw something up but having common sense helps.

There are websites that discus chamber finish, chamber pressure and cartridge cases sticking, stretching and deforming. No one asked what the head gap clearance is on this revolver or if the fired cases were checked for excessive expansion.

I myself find it very difficult to use my psychic abilities to fix problem over the Internet because it leads to many WAGs and arguments about something you don't have in your hand.

A persons name or their post count doesn't guaranty anything and I understand Mr. RugerMcMarlin side of things.

I spent the last 25 years of my working life as a Quality Control Inspector at a military repair and overhaul facility and the people who drove me up the wall were the people with the biggest egos.

NONE of us know the problem here because we do not have this firearm in our hands.

The first thing they teach an quality control inspector..............

"97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures"





Simple online forum question as an example below:

My rifle is shooting low what should I do? (And you can't see the rifle and don't have it in your hands)

 

[larryh1108]

I was told I had "Chamber expansion" and the cylinder needed to be replaced. Since we don't have a gunsmith in my town, I thought I'd ask the THR forum; has anyone heard of this, and is replacing the cylinder my only option?

OP's original question. I guess it's hard for many to read. I'll explain it. He was told by S&W that his gun had "chamber expansion". He then asked if anyone here heard of it and if replacing the cylinder was the only option. He didn't ask anyone to diagnose a problem.

He received many replies from many people, many who are "considered" "experts in this field". None of the "experts" diagnosed the problem but offered very detailed answers of what chamber expansion is, how it is usually caused, how it is diagnosed and what the cures are. All well thought out and well written. I didn't see these guys tell the OP his gun had chamber expansion but what chamber expansion actually is and how rare it is. They all also referred him to S&W for further information.

Now we also get others who suggest possible other options. Nice and what this forum is for... an exchange of ideas. The OP can take all of this info with a grain of salt and do whatever he wishes with the info provided.

We also get some posters who get their panties in a wad because the experts here diagnosed a problem without seeing the gun. Well, I followed this post from day 1 and I sure missed that part. I, for one, appreciate the time and effort that the "experts" put into making this forum what it is. Without their help we'd have a bunch of know-it-alls spouting home cures for issues that can be lethal. The thing that is most irritating on forums like this are posters who don't bother to read the posts but skim over it and assume a lot more than is there. Then they get all sarcastic and high and mighty and insulted if their own opinions are met with rolling eyes. Respect is earned over time. The wisest people are those who know when to keep their eyes open and their mouths shut and to actually learn something. My age has proven one thing to me, the more I know, the more I realize that I don't know. I wish more posters would learn that. The 3 hardest words a man can say is "I don't know". Once you learn how to say it and mean it your eyes and brain will become filled with knowledge.

I was told by S&W cust serv that it was chamber expansion and it meant the cylinder was "Shot out" and should be replaced.

 

[Slamfire]

A little information from the H.P. White Laboratories on chamber pressures and firearms failures. My reason for coping what is below was to warn people about lubing or oiling their cartridges for fire forming. An oiled or greased cartridge doubles the bolt thrust on your rifle and doubles the force on your locking lugs.

BigEDP51:

Edward Horton: Why you are back!! Peddling your pseudo science, or shall we call it Scientology on the evils of lubricated cases.

Remember this thread Ed?, one which an Administrator warned you about the consequences of your Scientology?

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?p=109323

1. Thread Closed !

Didn't another moderator just close a similar out-of-control thread just like this one?

Why the F$$$ is it being started over again accomplishing nothing accept seeding cannon fodder for more angst and anxiety !!!

I'm fed up and at the end of my rope with this scientific techno-babel drivel that has a unique audience of believers consisting of exactly one person, who endlessly promotes it all over the freakin forums ...

Geezzz... what does it take to get the message? My in-box is full of complaints from some pretty competent technical folks (including a metallurgist with a PhD physics), that many of the conclusions in these threads are based upon faulty data, scrounged Internet pics and extracts from selected articles, documents and manuals that simply create false generalizations. The content is more like Scientology then science! Not only that, but most of the time the post"creep" away from members original questions is so bad, it barely resembles what they were trying to find out in the first place, with the thread always seeming to morph into some bizarre argument about head spacing or condom lubricants, loaded with pics of Koala bears with arrows shoved up their a$$.

If I see one more self serving thread like this Ed, you might as well log off and keep going ....

It is one thing to be ignorant, another to be misinformed, but this rubbish is beyond totally wrong, it is certifiably pathological.

 

[bigedp51]

SlamFire1

I was poking my finger in a few peoples eyes when they needed hit on the head with a ball peen hammer to leave an impression on their mind. This was my poke in the eye to a person advocating greasing cartridge cases in the Enfield rifle, and another poke in the eye was aimed at someone who said he was going to chamber an Enfield in .300 Winchester magnum, lube the cases and check for radial and longitudinal case expansion.

If the British military tells you to NOT lube your cases it is NOT Scientology!
(its because lubing the cases doubles the bolt thrust)





If the United States Army tells you NOT to lube your ammo its NOT Scientology!



If the reloading manuals tell you to not lube your your ammo then ITS not Scientology!



And if a firearms manufacture tells you to not lube your ammo it is NOT Scientology!





This is NOT Scientology!



If you care to look you will see at Milsurps.com that bigedp51 who's real name is Ed Horton donated 95% of all Enfield books and manuals you see on the Internet today.



What you will also see in a collectors forum is a bunch of people that only care about the precious marking, cartouches and stamps on their firearms and these people don't know **** about the technical side of the fence.

If you want to discredit me and try and out me in a forum then you better get your facts straight mister.

The person who wrote your cut and paste is the owner of this forum and he sucked my manual sticky dry at another forum and doesn't like being reminded of this fact or that half the material he got from me he forgot to give credit for where HE got it. The owner is more concerned with keeping his forum members happy than he is in the correct technical information.

So Mr. SlamFire1 if the senior British armourer in the U.K. likes what I have to say and who I count as a friend, then what you think doesn't matter for a hill of beans.





What you also do not understand Mr. SlamFire1 is an owner of another Canadian website lied and contacted the two American websites where I had my Enfield manual stickys, and told them I was breaking copyright laws. So this lying blood sucking leach could make money selling his Enfield books.

So Mr. SlamFire1 a hobby of mine turned into a war that goes on to this very day and deals with back stabbing in the name of money. Did I tell you I was giving these manuals away for free hoping to start an Enfield renaissance of enlightenment but the barbarians invaded and drove the Enfield world back into the dark ages.

 

[bigedp51]

Oh and I almost forgot Mr. SlamFire1, when I loose a postal Enfield match to the Australians and because I have a warped sense of humor I like to get even with the Australians who I also count as my friends.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Larry 1108 thanks for clearing it up, and just in the nick of time. 3 days later.

While your parroting off stuff from last week, the very quote, YOU selected said nothing about smith and wesson anything. that didnt come up until it was over.

yes over, ya missed it. ROLLING EYES would be fine, its noise free.

 

[bigedp51]

SlamFire1

It is one thing to be ignorant, another to be misinformed, but this rubbish is beyond totally wrong, it is certifiably pathological

And Mr. SlamFire, reach around and grab yourself by the ears and pull real hard.

You based your insulting statement on a assumption you knew nothing about, on facts you were totally in the dark on. And this is also called a internet WAG caused by inadequate information.

 

[1911Tuner]

And...

This one's about done, I think. Can't really go anywhere good from here.