cheap gun bashing

[tarosean]

If a person carries and shoots a few rounds, a low cost handgun can serve them well. If they want to put a zillion rounds through them they are better off coughing up some change.

Ammo costs far exceed the price of any gun when you get to that "zillions of rounds" mark.

If a person can only afford a High Point the likelihood of them putting 1000rds through it probably isn't even a remote possibility. Just from the financial aspect (the made up number from earlier in this thread).
Im glad guns exist to fit every budget

 

[Tallball]

In response to a previous post...

A little OT, but just as a PSA, the Ruger P series pistols are extremely good bargains right now. Within the past year or so I have purchased "one of each" - a 9mm, a 40 S&W, and a 45acp. They are Models 89, 94, and 90. None of them were shot much before I got them. The 9mm and 40 are in great shape cosmetically. The 45acp (police turn-in, I'm pretty sure) has holster wear. I have yet to have a malfunction from any of them, they eat everything I've fed them, and they are as accurate for me as most full-sized service pistols.

I won each of them on Gunbroker auctions for $149-$179 apiece, IIRC. If someone needed a HD/SD pistol and didn't have much to spend, that would be something to consider.

Here is the 40:

View media item 1727

 

[Browning]

In response to a previous post...

A little OT, but just as a PSA, the Ruger P series pistols are extremely good bargains right now.

So are police trade in pistols. Sometimes I'm seeing Sig, Beretta, Glock and S&W pistols in 9mil and .40 going for right around the $300 mark. Sometimes a little over, sometimes a little under. There's a glut of .40's on the market right now.

For instance here is a Beretta 92D 9mm for $314 (*Link*)

Here are a slew of others ... *Link 2*, *Link 3* and *Link 4.

Now that Beretta is $143 more than what I found a Hi Point pistol at when searching at Academy Sports (*Link*, but it will be a better pistol if you're able to throw in the extra cash.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I've seen and heard instances where owners of expensive shotguns (>£5,000) belittle anything cheaper as a way of justifying their expensive purchase. I have no experience of buying a gun for personal defence, but you buy what you can afford. There is no sense in berating the choices of others as you are not them and not in their situation. One of the things I like about this forum is the range of advice and support for those who ask for it, surely a more effective way of helping people make informed choices.

Man, you hit the nail on the head with your post. Just recently saw this in action. There will always be smug gun owners. Just part of life. In the meantime some country kid takes a inexpensive gun and does wonders with it. Grows up to be one might fine shooter. Bravo to that kid.

 

[Zerodefect]

Then there's some of us that actually feel real pain, when we see a newer shooter going through the same terrible decision making process that we did, when we were new.

It might seem like snobbery to bash, for example, Kimbers, but that's the experience we had.

My Ruger p95dc did it's job, getting me into this, but it was holding my skill level down. It's a super safe cop gun, not a fighting pistol. I might keep mine for nostalgia now.

 

[MikeInOr]

My Ruger P85 is one of the very few firearms that I have parted ways with. I traded it in on the Beretta 92 INOX (which I still have) ~25 years ago.

My P85 wasn't really a bad gun in anyway... I mostly just succumbed to peer pressure at the time. Back then the Ruger P series was kind of considered a ghetto gun. I can't say I ever really regretted the trade. I do like the Ruger P series more than I like the Hi-Points (personal preference, not a value judgement).

I have never really looked at LEO trade-ins. I kind of always assumed they were pretty well used and put away wet???? Ordering guns online is always a bit of a crap-shoot... you never know what you are going to get.

 

[exbrit49]

More years ago than i want to think about, I was at a gun show and purchased a little Davis .380. I fully realized that when I bought it that it was not a high quality firearm. It was a CHEAP "Saturday night special". Over the years I would pull it out of the safe and take it along on a trip to the range along with my high quality firearms . Other than an occasional "smoke-stack" it has actually functioned quite well. That little Davis has been a constant source of criticism on so many forums and discussions. As I stated, it has actually performed quiet well over the years despite having a lot of rounds pumped through it. It is still in great condition and when at the range it sometimes sits beside my Rugers, Smiths and Dan Wesson's and I am not ashamed to have it there. I had no expectations out of that little Davis but after 30 plus, years have actually grown to admire its tenacity to keep pushing my hand loaded 380s down range.
I sure would not carry it as a defensive weapon, but I sure dont mind having some fun with it at the range, Its not a quality gun but it works and for the $65 dollars I paid for it, its done me well.and provided a lot of fun.

 

[cheygriz]

It's been my experience that you by something for $100, and it's crap, then you trade it for something that's $200 and it's also crap. Then you trade up to the $300 item and it's not bad at all, but far from excellent. You keep it for a while and finally trade for the $500 item and it's truly superb. You wish that you had bought this one in the first place.

Now, when you try to share your experience with a newbie, and try to save him some money in the long run, you get called a snob.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

No, I bought expensive 22.cals, and on a whim, bought a Phoenix 22, It embarrassed all the higher priced 22 cals out there in performance, reliability and accuracy. Cheap gun, great value. Does better than guns costing 4 times as much. What hurts, is when this gun is challenged by a gun costing so much more money. The Phoenix wins. And the gun Snobs hate it with a passion.

 

[adcoch1]

It's been my experience that you by something for $100, and it's crap, then you trade it for something that's $200 and it's also crap. Then you trade up to the $300 item and it's not bad at all, but far from excellent. You keep it for a while and finally trade for the $500 item and it's truly superb. You wish that you had bought this one in the first place.

Now, when you try to share your experience with a newbie, and try to save him some money in the long run, you get called a snob.

That type of advice is valuable and helpful to any thinking person. It's the question about a $100 gun and a guy says " If it isn't a holland and holland it isn't worth owning". Now how in the world is that statement by itself valuable or helpful? If someone askes me for advice I will do my best to explain WHY I have an opinion, and try to explain why higher price guns are more desirable. But if a guy is on a Chevy budget I ain't gonna show him a Bentley!

 

[Browning]

I have never really looked at LEO trade-ins. I kind of always assumed they were pretty well used and put away wet???? Ordering guns online is always a bit of a crap-shoot... you never know what you are going to get.

The vast majority of them have lots of holster wear or in the case of long guns have a few more dings and wear, but are shot very little.

The former LE guns that I've bought I were typically bought at large gun stores (GT Distributors) that were sold these in batches, so I picked through them and found the best one.

If it was an incredibly good deal I'd probably take a chance on a net deal from a reputable dealer. Maybe add $15 for 'hand select' (best out of five).

If it's a carry or truck gun wear matters very little to me just so long as it functions.

 

[Captcurt]

No, I bought expensive 22.cals, and on a whim, bought a Phoenix 22, It embarrassed all the higher priced 22 cals out there in performance, reliability and accuracy. Cheap gun, great value. Does better than guns costing 4 times as much. What hurts, is when this gun is challenged by a gun costing so much more money. The Phoenix wins. And the gun Snobs hate it with a passion.

The safety on my Phoenix came apart with less than 200 rounds through it. It shot well up until that time. $100 pistol and I got to use it 2 or 3 times.

 

[Tallball]

I have never really looked at LEO trade-ins. I kind of always assumed they were pretty well used and put away wet???? Ordering guns online is always a bit of a crap-shoot... you never know what you are going to get.

I'm not sure how many police turn-in and milsurp handguns I've bought online. Something like two dozen. One was a $200 revolver that needs a part I'm having trouble finding. All of the others have worked just fine. My police turn-ins typically have some holster wear, but examining the interior shows that most of them weren't shot much (maybe just for qualifying?). IMHO, day in and day out, the LE turn-ins and milsurps are the best deals out there. If I've bought 24, something like 15-20 of them were in the $150-$225 range. I think I paid $285 apiece for my Glock 22 and Sig P229 (both came with the box and extra magazines). As far as I can recall, those were my two most expensive specimens.

 

[Eddietruett]

What is Cheap? I'm a S&W Lover to the Core and have some Cheaply Bought Smiths. I have a couple of Model 10's that were police trade ins that I bought for less than $200 each in the last year. No one bashes them. I have a couple of Smiths that are worth well over 1K. Are they "better" because they cost more? One of my best friends owns several Pawn Shops and on occasion I'll take a "cheap" gun and play with it just to have some fun. I go a beat up Hi Point from him and think I gave $75 just to see what all the bashing was about. I put over 1000 rounds through it with not the first hiccup. Was it a target gun? No but it was certainly pie plat accurate at 25 yards. My truck gun is a Taurus P709. I've done everything I can to make it fail other than dropping in a handful of dirt. Its fed well over 1000 rounds of mixed ammo from steel case to half ass reloads and never failed to fire. Just because a gun has a cheap price tag doesn't mean its not a decent gun for a certain purpose. I do agree with one of the above posters, you shouldn't bash anything that you don't own and have had experience with. I'll never run around and praise Hi Point and Taurus guns like I will Smiths but we aren't comparing apples to apples. If you purchase a gun and it goes bang when you pull the trigger, then it does what it was designed to do.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Yeah, like holding onto a 2X4.

There is a difference between cheap and inexpensive guns. Io's, Pheonix, and Ravens come to mind as cheap. I bought a couple of IO Inc's 380's when everyone was jumping on the smaller carry guns. After breaking one down and inspecting it I was ashamed to sell them. Inexpensive guns can be well made. My Ruger Security Nine was reasonable priced and shoots as good as my Glock. I had a LCP, LC9, LC380 and a couple of Keltecs that cost me around $200 that served me well and were well made. If a person carries and shoots a few rounds, a low cost handgun can serve them well. If they want to put a zillion rounds through them they are better off coughing up some change.

Boy, I could not disagree more with your statement. I have two Phoenix HPA;s and thousands rounds through them. Owned them for years. I mean a LOT of ammo and still shooting them. Regardless of the metal used, these guns work and they do it well. I saw your post that you had one and a safety failed. Never heard that one before, but they have a life time warranty and great customer service. Now you go on to tell us about the LCP as being a good gun? Ok, My gosh I had four of them. Obviously you did not shoot them often because if you did you would end up with cracks in the frame, grip, broken take down pins, split rails etc. Yes, they are reliable, I only wish they held up as well as the Phoenix HPA. Not sure why you are comparing the Phoenix to a LCP in the first place. The Phoenix is NOT a carry gun. It is a plinker and trainer.By the way, I have plenty of pics of the broken Rugers. I certainly would NOT be ashamed to sell a person a Phoenix. Especially since I KNOW the gun well and have followed the reviews and comments from posters for years. This is one reason why I never listen to a guy behind the counter.
And I would sell the LCP to a customer, but since I know that gun inside and out, shot thousands of rounds through them, tell the customer the limitations. How they shoot, what to expect etc.

 

[Old Dog]

And herein lies the rub: everyone has a differing opinion of what constitutes "cheap guns." When I came of age in the firearms community, cheap guns were Lorcins, Jennings, Bryco, Davis, et al. Pot metal guns were the "Saturday Night Specials." Nowadays many seem willing to give a pass to their personal favorite "cheap guns" (see above Phoenix fan, while others adore the new polymer baby Rugers) ... for me, though, I don't lump used guns in with cheap guns. A used $300 S&W revolver or $400 915 pistol cannot be compared to a low-end Taurus or SCCY; quality is quality, and reputable used pieces from reputable manufacturers shouldn't be compared to budget pistols. I'll take a heavily used police trade-in SIG that I picked up for $425 any day of the week over a brand-new Ruger American at the same price ... Call me a snob if you wish, don't care ...

And plenty of expensive firearms get bashed routinely on the internet. Kimber a prime example. Colt takes hits every day. For a long time, folks bitched about Brazilian-made and roll-marked Springfield Armory 1911s, even though they were some of the best 1911s on the market. H&K? Remember the hoopla when the company decided it was only gonna support the LE and military market? I carried a very expensive H&K for years, considered it the best $400 pistol then in existence that retailed for $900, even though the ergos sucked, it was a brick and virtually none of our officers shot it very well.

Bottom line for me: it's all subjective. I don't give a crap anymore what I read in the gun rags or on the internet; I won't make a judgement about any gun until I've acquired substantial personal experience actually shooting (and maybe carrying) it.

So I sure don't worry about people bashing or trashing my favorite guns ... all I can do is relate my own experience.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

And for example, I would get rid of my Ruger SR22 before I would the Phoenix. You are right, use your personal experience and let the other garbage be damned. It is the right tool for training for a short barrel firearm and it is fun. Another gun that I have shot like crazy is the Ruger LCR9mm. Listened to a bunch of garbage about crimp jump which turned out to be a total non issue after easily finding the right ammunition of which there is a multitude. I trust that gun as much as my 38 Smith or any other gun I own. And 4 years of steady shooting it has more than proven itself to me.
And then there is the basher that has NEVER even fired a particular gun much less owned one. Or the guy that bashes a gun because he had a failure of some kind, or new a guy that new a guy that had one.

 

[thomas15]

Bottom line for me: it's all subjective. I don't give a crap anymore what I read in the gun rags or on the internet; I won't make a judgement about any gun until I've acquired substantial personal experience actually shooting (and maybe carrying) it.

I understand what you are saying and it is true that if a magazine has a gun maker paying 1000s of dollars for advertising that might have an impact on the "review" within it's pages. Go to any major match and what you see the top 50% shooters using is not pictured in color in the latest Gun Digest.

However it really comes down to the application. Gun shops stock what sells. If you have a specific task in mind then most likely you will have to order special and/or have after sale work done, none of this is consistent with budget firearms.

I have seen shooters even in competitions where not specifically disallowed shooting with hardware that really isn't cheap but still silly given the task at hand. A really good example comes to mind, I ROed at a large falling steel match in the fall. Several shooters went to the line with gun mounted lights attached to their pistols. One was using a custom holster that was made to accommodate his light. The thing is shooters were not required to draw from a holster in this match. This is an instance where the hardware is innapproprate for the task. It would have taken 5 seconds to ditch both the holster and the light. As a side note given the shooters ability and performance, having retained all that expensive bric-a-brac made watching him shoot all the more painful.

I personally have never shot in a Cowboy Action match. I haven't been to one or watched one on TV. So I'm not the person to ask if you want information on Cowboy Action shooting. But this I do know, those that shoot a lot of Cowboy Action have better than entry level gear and those that do well practice with their gear a lot.

After trying for several years I finally won a gun based on marksmanship skills. I had the choice of several handguns but chose a gen 5 Glock 34. This gun retails new for about $700 I have several 9mm Glocks already, know well their strengths and weaknesses. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do with this gun yet but I'm confident I can get this firearm to shoot well. The irony is I won the gun at a prize table shooting a S&W N frame revolver that has numerous enhancements and upgrades.

I live close to a lake that has weekly Bass contests. Most of the fishermen have boats that make my boat look like a toy. And my boat is actually nice but not fancy just small and only 50 HP. Anyway I have seen guys in a 12' tin with a only trolling motors out do the 225 HP Rangers. It happens but it is rare. Why? Because the guys with the Rangers are out on the lake 250 days a year practicing and working on skills. If I were out on the lake that often I would have a Ranger also.

 

[Eddietruett]

One thing that I don’t think has been mentioned on this post or if so I missed it, is type of ammo being used. It never fails to amuse me that a customer will walk into a store, buy a gun whether it’s an economy brand or top of the line and immediately buy the cheapest ammo on the shelf. There’s a reason some is $6 a box and others are $10. I reload everything I shoot, but I get much better performance using quality components than the cheapest components. I had a buddy that bought a Springfield 1911 and constantly complained about it jamming and the accuracy. Sold it to me for half of what it was worth. I tried it, planning on sending it back to the factory. I had 2 boxes of Winchester ammo and it never jammed once. Put probably 500 rounds of mixed reloads with not a hitch. Found out he was using some bulk off brand ammo he had bought at a gun show. I got a handful of the cheap ammo and it wouldn’t feed in anything. He was bashing the gun and it was the ammo!

 

[Duster340]

Man, you hit the nail on the head with your post. Just recently saw this in action. There will always be smug gun owners. Just part of life. In the meantime some country kid takes a inexpensive gun and does wonders with it. Grows up to be one might fine shooter. Bravo to that kid.

Agreed. I was given an old, 19teens, no name, exposed hammer single shot 12 gauge by my godfather at age 9. His dad taught him to shoot with it and it was passed on to me. To me is was the most beautiful gun I ever saw. Took it everywhere I went, hunting all sorts of game, shooting cans and what not. Well, at about 12-13 yo a friend's dad was a member of a gun club and he took us trap shooting. Having never shot trap, not to mention been to a gun club I had no idea what to expect but was really excited. We arrive and I pull my old single shot out of a sack I made out of an old pair of jeans and immediately some guy looks at me and my gun, and incredulously says "what the heck is that thing?" Other guys all kinda chuckle. I'll never forget how those pompous turds in their little vests with their shiny over/unders and semis made me feel. My buddy's dad leads me to the line and explained how it worked. He shoots at a few and hit a few as I watched. Then my buddy does the same. Then it was my turn...I was nervous as heck, but figured it couldn't be much harder than hitting grouse, pheasant or dove. I load #6 field load (all I had) and say "pull".... and miss. I repeat this a few more times much to the amusement of the "members". My buddy's dad says "just relax". I try to calm myself down and remember my Godfather telling me that the old gun had a real tight choke, and to let birds get out a bit before shooting. So instead of trying to hit them right out of the thrower I let them get out a few more yards. Low and behold, I smoked one. I didn't miss many more the rest of the day. Ended up out shooting my buddy, his dad and several of the "experts" that found my gun so amusing earlier that day. I left with my head held high and my beat up single shot proudly displayed. Will never forget that day and still have that old single shot.

Ironically, I still get similar reactions at the range when I shoot skeet and trap with my beat up 35+ year old, spray painted, camo taped, mossy 500. Though they tend to avert their gaze and stop snickering when the old gun smokes them skeet.

I really appreciate high end firearms, and own some nice weapons. But still like my old "working" guns.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

One of my favorite stories is the Racing Horse Seabiscuit, the little odd looking horse that Kicked A** on the Gallant favorite. the Big Proud, WAR ADMIRAL. Over the years as a kid and belonging to hunt clubs I saw taped up Mossbergs, old guys using single shots and whatever. The thing is, they lived to hunt and they always did well. Let the Country Club boys have their fancy guns and stocks, drink fine whiskey and smoke Primo Cubans. Heck, I am fine with a gallon of Evans and a Mossberg is just right.

 

[John Joseph]

No projectile has ever been able to read the name stamped on the firearm that fired it

 

[P5 Guy]

Well, My brother traded in our grandfather's Colt for a Hi-Point 40S&W.
I think the Colt was a Police Special that he carried as a security guard for the PTC. My brother still had to kick in cash to make the trade.
I bash him not the gun.

 

[Eddietruett]

Ironically, I still get similar reactions at the range when I shoot skeet and trap with my beat up 35+ year old, spray painted, camo taped, mossy 500. Though they tend to avert their gaze and stop snickering when the old gun smokes them skeet.

I really appreciate high end firearms, and own some nice weapons. But still like my old "working" guns.

Boy are you and I on the same page! I love the looks when I go to a public range and see the looks on all the plastic gun toters when I pull out some of my old Smiths. When there is a group looking I never fail to pull out an old 1954 Colt Model 357 that might have 15% of its finish left. It is butt ugly but what a shooter. I see the young guys snickering and poking each other looking at my guns (some of which are worth 4 times what their plastic Glocks are worth) and then I like to see the look on their faces when I start punching out bullseyes especially with my old beater Colt. Never fails that at least one will wonder over and ask a few questions, followed by "mind if I give it a try" and then usually, "where can I find an old revolver like that". Theres just something about wiping smugness off someones face that can be at times better than sex. (I said sometimes).

 

[Duster340]

Boy are you and I on the same page! Theres just something about wiping smugness off someones face that can be at times better than sex. (I said sometimes).

LOL... Yep, same page for sure. The disclaimer almost made me spit out my beer! Be well man.