Civilian Concealed Carry, Barrier Penetrating Ammo, Or Not? Sabers vs Dots

[Hartkopf]

For the average guy who goes to work, goes shopping with the family, eats at the local restaurant, we are told to try to get away before ever firing a shot in self defense. We shouldn't even present our weapon if at all possible, much less fire a shot, if we can leave the area. If we ever have to actually shoot in self defense, we are told to stop shooting when the threat is neutralized. The legal system will be judging every single shot fired afterwards.

If all of the above is true and a good guideline, then should the average guy really be carrying bonded, barrier penetrating ammo?

We fire the least number of shots possible to avoid hitting bystanders. So why carry ammo that could possibly penetrate a barrier and hit a bystander?

Effectiveness on the intended target is the only reason. If a bonded Gold Dot is MUCH more effective at stopping a bad guy than an unbonded Golden Saber, then I would prefer the Gold Dot. If this were to be true, it would be possible to stop the bad guy with less shots, which is the goal for the average guy.

So the question is, are bonded bullets really any more effective than unbonded bullets?
Are they enough better to justify their use by the average Joe?
Do bonded bullets really penetrate barriers any better than unbonded bullets?

I've talked to an officer who worked in a morgue and he swears by Gold Dots. But seeing that Gold Dots were very effective, doesn't mean he actually got a good sense of the effectiveness of other ammo such as the Golden Sabers.

Both of these rounds have proven effective on deer, (so I've read) and the Sabers tend to expand more and penetrate a little less in testing I've done. I believe both of these rounds would stop a threat fairly equally but I have no actual evidence of one being better than the other.

 

[Robert]

There a ton of penetration and expansion tests out there on just about every popular carry round. It would be pretty easy to look up the results and see what does better. I know Box O' Truth has done a ton of testing shooting through dry wall and the like. Give them a look.

 

[BSA1]

Until 2016 I did not see a reason to carry a high capacity semi-auto with a heavier bullet. Then a nearby mass workplace shooting and a nutcase that was pointing a rifle at cars on a highway and was shot and killed by Sheriff Deputies made me reevaluate my carry gun and ammunition.

Other events such as the Pulse Nightclub shooting and the Las Vegas
mass shooting shows how slow the police are to react to a active shooter. As a result I have become to see the value of suppressive fire. While I may not be able to shoot though the cover a active shooter is hiding behind I have enough ammunition to cause him to hide behind it giving other people a chance to escape.

One common thing that happens in many workplace and other mass shootings is when the shooter is confronted by armed responders they stop their attack and commit suicide.

 

[Hartkopf]

Until 2016 I did not see a reason to carry a high capacity semi-auto with a heavier bullet. Then a nearby mass workplace shooting and a nutcase that was pointing a rifle at cars on a highway and was shot and killed by Sheriff Deputies made me reevaluate my carry gun and ammunition.

Other events such as the Pulse Nightclub shooting and the Las Vegas
mass shooting shows how slow the police are to react to a active shooter. As a result I have become to see the value of suppressive fire. While I may not be able to shoot though the cover a active shooter is hiding behind I have enough ammunition to cause him to hide behind it giving other people a chance to escape.

One common thing that happens in many workplace and other mass shootings is when the shooter is confronted by armed responders they stop their attack and commit suicide.

So your saying the ammo selection doesn't matter to you as long as you have capacity? Or are you saying the heavier bullets hold together through barriers so that's why you now use them?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Do you mean barrier blind? Barrier blind ammunition means that it generally performs the same after passing through a barrier not that it will penetrate a barrier specifically.

This list was compiled by Dr. Gary Roberts. He is THE leading expert in terminal ballistics and round performance


Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)


Any thing on it will perform adequately. Pick one and roll.

I would like to point out that Speer Gold Dots are on the list and Non bonded Golden Sabers are not

Here's a link to the discussion


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

I have no idea what the attached file is

 

[MikeInOr]

For the average guy who goes to work, goes shopping with the family, eats at the local restaurant, we are told to try to get away before ever firing a shot in self defense. We shouldn't even present our weapon if at all possible, much less fire a shot, if we can leave the area. If we ever have to actually shoot in self defense, we are told to stop shooting when the threat is neutralized. The legal system will be judging every single shot fired afterwards.

If all of the above is true and a good guideline, then should the average guy really be carrying bonded, barrier penetrating ammo?

My job is to get away from a situation as quick as possible and protect myself and my loved ones. I carry gold dots, have done so for a very long time and don't foresee changing any time soon. I carry my own reloads which makes practicing with my carry ammo affordable. I see no reason to carry any sort of barrier penetrating ammo or other exotic this or that.

People can always dream up some scenereo to justify carrying anything... I am a pragmatist! I am probably 100 times more likely to be struck by lightning than be caught in a mass shooting situation... but I don't walk around with a foil hat and a copper pipe stuck up my butt.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

My job is to get away from a situation as quick as possible and protect myself and my loved ones. I carry gold dots, have done so for a very long time and don't foresee changing any time soon. I carry my own reloads which makes practicing with my carry ammo affordable. I see no reason to carry any sort of barrier penetrating ammo or other exotic this or that.

People can always dream up some scenereo to justify carrying anything... I am a pragmatist! I am probably 100 times more likely to be struck by lightning than be caught in a mass shooting situation... but I don't walk around with a foil hat and a copper pipe stuck up my butt.

You know that Speer Gold Dots are barrier blind ammunition right?

 

[Hartkopf]

This list was compiled by Dr. Gary Roberts. He is THE leading expert in terminal ballistics and round performance


Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)


Any thing on it will perform adequately. Pick one and roll.

Iwould like to point out that Speer Gold Dots are on the list and Non bonded Golden Sabers are not

Here's a link to the discussion


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

The way I understand it, Dr Roberts list is compiled with barriers being a factor in effectiveness. Probably why the unbonded Sabers are not on the list.
Could that be a good thing for non law enforcement?

When speaking of 223/556 ammo, Dr Roberts has broken it down into barrier blind and non barrier blind. The way I understand it is he has not done that with handgun loads. Neither has the FBI.

All of the recommendations I've seen that quote Dr Roberts and the FBI are good. I'm not arguing against those lists of ammo. But are they really the best for average guy everyday carry?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

But are they really the best for average guy everyday carry?

I'd say so. If I understand it correctly it's not that they're meant to penetrate a barrier or penetrate further it's that they're meant to perform the same way after penetrating the barrier. The example I read was passing through a windshield.

It doesn't mean that they're neccesarily over penetrate and hit someone else.

 

[Hartkopf]

My job is to get away from a situation as quick as possible and protect myself and my loved ones. I carry gold dots, have done so for a very long time and don't foresee changing any time soon. I carry my own reloads which makes practicing with my carry ammo affordable. I see no reason to carry any sort of barrier penetrating ammo or other exotic this or that.

People can always dream up some scenereo to justify carrying anything... I am a pragmatist! I am probably 100 times more likely to be struck by lightning than be caught in a mass shooting situation... but I don't walk around with a foil hat and a copper pipe stuck up my butt.

I dreamed up no scenario and there is nothing up my butt. You're opinion seems to be it does not matter.

 

[film495]

it just depends what scenario you want to be prepared for. do you need to carry that ammo, well no - carry whatever ammo you want for whatever reason you decide. I carry a little .32 ACP with ball ammo sometimes and no spare mag - many experts would tell me that is not good for self defense, but I'm going to do it anyway.

 

[Hartkopf]

The example I read was passing through a windshield.

It doesn't mean that they're neccesarily over penetrate and hit someone else.

Agreed. But his testing showed the bonded bullet to do more damage to the target on the other side of the barrier. We should not be shooting through barriers so this is not a benefit to average Joe concealed carry guy.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Agreed. But his testing showed the boned bullet to do more damage to the target on the other side of the barrier. We should not be shooting through barriers so this is not a benefit to average Joe concealed carry guy.

If you take the barrier blind aspect completely out of the equation I'm going to use just as an example Speer gold dots because that's what I'm carrying.

They still perform well they still expand well they still have adequate penetration they still meet the FBI's minimum standards.

So they're good ammunition that just happenes to be barrier blind.

I kind of think you're overthinking this. Like I said I would just get something on Dr. Robert's list and roll.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I carry a little .32 ACP with ball ammo sometimes and no spare mag - many experts would tell me that is not good for self defense, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Wasn't it Cooper that said that the problem with carrying a .32 is that it might give you the mistaken idea that you're armed?

 

[Hartkopf]

So they're good ammunition that just happenes to be barrier blind.

I kind of think you're overthinking this. Like I said I would just get something on Dr. Robert's list and roll.

Not overthinking anything. It really seems like common sense to say we should carry effective ammo that does less damage once passing through a barrier.

Legally we should not be shooting what we can't see and if we did it would probably be an accident.

Example: Little Timmy in a car 50 yards away behind the bad guy charging you with a knife. You miss bad guy and one of your rounds hits the car door, or window where Timmy is sitting. Maybe even a cheap 1986 9mm cup and core bullet would prove fatal anyway? Might not matter what we use because I understand there is no "safe" ammo but something less likely to do damage on the other side of a barrier seems smarter. Maybe.

We could dream up hundreds of examples but there is no need for that. Bystanders very well could be in the area during the time we need to defend ourselves and it's also extremely likely the bystanders will be getting behind barriers.

 

[LaneP]

@Trunk Monkey I seem to remember him writing about the .25 ACP to the effect the worst thing you could do is shoot someone with it because once they realize you've shot them they may become angry and harm you (or some approximate verbiage )

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Not overthinking anything. It really seems like common sense to say we should carry effective ammo that does less damage once passing through a barrier.

Legally we should not be shooting what we can't see and if we did it would probably be an accident.

Example: Little Timmy in a car 50 yards away behind the bad guy charging you with a knife. You miss bad guy and one of your rounds hits the car door, or window where Timmy is sitting. Maybe even a cheap 1986 9mm cup and core bullet would prove fatal anyway? Might not matter what we use because I understand there is no "safe" ammo but something less likely to do damage on the other side of a barrier seems smarter. Maybe.

We could dream up hundreds of examples but there is no need for that. Bystanders very well could be in the area during the time we need to defend ourselves and it's also extremely likely the bystanders will be getting behind barriers.

You could always get the Speer Gold Dot personal protection rounds instead of the LE rounds

 

[Hartkopf]

You could always get the Speer Gold Dot personal protection rounds instead of the LE rounds

Haha real funny!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Not overthinking anything. It really seems like common sense to say we should carry effective ammo that does less damage once passing through a barrier.

Legally we should not be shooting what we can't see and if we did it would probably be an accident.

Example: Little Timmy in a car 50 yards away behind the bad guy charging you with a knife. You miss bad guy and one of your rounds hits the car door, or window where Timmy is sitting. Maybe even a cheap 1986 9mm cup and core bullet would prove fatal anyway? Might not matter what we use because I understand there is no "safe" ammo but something less likely to do damage on the other side of a barrier seems smarter. Maybe.

We could dream up hundreds of examples but there is no need for that. Bystanders very well could be in the area during the time we need to defend ourselves and it's also extremely likely the bystanders will be getting behind barriers.

What's most likely is that the bystanders we'll still be standing there trying to figure out what the hell is going on when it's all over.

You are accountable every round you fire, I understand that. But I doubt very seriously in the real world that whether you used barrier blind ammunition or not is going to have that much of an effect on the outcome or whether or not an innocent bystander is hurt more less severely

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Haha real funny!

I mean if it will make you feel better....

I am sorry guy but you really are overthinking this get the Gold Dots and roll

 

[Hartkopf]

I mean if it will make you feel better....

I am sorry guy but you really are overthinking this get the Gold Dots and roll

Since when has thinking become overthinking? Can you see my point?

Dr Roberts breaks down the 223/556 loads for barrier blind or not. He doesn't do the same for handgun ammo that everybody blindly quotes and follows. (I agree it's all good ammo)

I am not law enforcement so why do I want barrier blind? If old school ammo is not as effective then I do want the barrier blind ammo, just not for that particular quality.

I understand your opinion, that it doesn't matter because Gold Dots are good.
I carry them right now also but I'm not convinced they are the best for non LEOs.

 

[CDW4ME]

I've had unbonded Golden Sabers shed the jacket in gallon jugs of water after 4 layer denim; I've also had them not shed the jacket.
I'd not be unduly concerned with carrying the unbonded Golden Saber 124+P 9mm or 185 +P 45 acp.
However, since I have HST available, which doesn't shed jacket, unbonded Golden Saber is not my 1st pick.
I'd be more concerned with POI/POA and ammo selection, ex... if 185 Golden Sabers hit my POA perfectly but 230 HST was high, that would factor.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Since when has thinking become overthinking? Can you see my point?

Dr Roberts breaks down the 223/556 loads for barrier blind or not. He doesn't do the same for handgun ammo that everybody blindly quotes and follows. (I agree it's all good ammo)

I am not law enforcement so why do I want barrier blind? If old school ammo is not as effective then I do want the barrier blind ammo, just not for that particular quality.

I understand your opinion, that it doesn't matter because Gold Dots are good.
I carry them right now also but I'm not convinced they are the best for non LEOs.

Now this really is strictly my opinion but I don't think you can get ammunition that performs in a way that's adequate for self defense without it being barrier blind.

I also think that "best" is entirely too subjective to really be a useable term.

I carry 124 grain + P Gold Dots because a reputable instructor recommended them to me before I ever even heard of DocGKR.

 

[Hartkopf]

Now this really is strictly my opinion but I don't think you can get ammunition that performs in a way that's adequate for self defense without it being barrier blind.

There definitely is a difference so you might have a point. I did some testing with a modified gel block which had plastic inserts placed at various increments down its length. The Gold Dots stayed together and penetrated deeper. The Golden Sabers expanded more but one lost its jacket at 10”. This test was more difficult than standard gel so 10” might have been plenty. The average chest cavity depth is somewhere around 9” I believe.

 

[Kleanbore]

If I understand it correctly it's not that they're meant to penetrate a barrier or penetrate further it's that they're meant to perform the same way after penetrating the barrier.

You got it.