Col Jeff Cooper said you should own what?
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BerettaNut92
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You know, I don't know a lot about the man, a lot of what he says makes sense, and although I think it makes sense, not all of it applies to me, my situation, lifestyle, tastes, et cetera...I just try to keep an open mind and be healthily skeptical. 
I really ought to order his books, I've been long overdue on that one.
I really ought to order his books, I've been long overdue on that one.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The thing that folks oughta remember about Cooper's comments is that there is no "one size fits all". In general, he is correct insofar as the situations he's seen. Somebody in a totally different set of scenarios has different needs.
The Scout rifle is great for Cooper's intended uses. It ain't the deal for urban SHTF. So what?
The 1911 works, as does the .45ACP cartridge. So do a lot of others. Hitting the target is a whole bunch more important than what you're using to do that job. IMO, Cooper and I are in accord about the aesthetics of the Colt vs. most others. If they all work, why not pick the one that appeals to your eye? I grant that after over 50 years of meddling with the Colt, I've found it sorta fits my hand real good...
As far as writing style, he's using that more formal phrasing common to the years of his education. I fail to see how that's a problem. At least the man knows how to spell and punctuate, which would be a whole new asset for some folks who post here.
Hey, anybody who thinks up the usage of "Hoplophobe" has just gotta be a good guy!!!
Art
The Scout rifle is great for Cooper's intended uses. It ain't the deal for urban SHTF. So what?
The 1911 works, as does the .45ACP cartridge. So do a lot of others. Hitting the target is a whole bunch more important than what you're using to do that job. IMO, Cooper and I are in accord about the aesthetics of the Colt vs. most others. If they all work, why not pick the one that appeals to your eye? I grant that after over 50 years of meddling with the Colt, I've found it sorta fits my hand real good...
As far as writing style, he's using that more formal phrasing common to the years of his education. I fail to see how that's a problem. At least the man knows how to spell and punctuate, which would be a whole new asset for some folks who post here.
Hey, anybody who thinks up the usage of "Hoplophobe" has just gotta be a good guy!!!
Art
Edward429451
member
Isn't it a shame when know it alls denigrate know a lots with narrow minded shortsightedness?
That was well said. Dynamic world ever changing means that some of the stuff that older people have said, will not neccessarily ring true for us today. Where are you guys books? When was your time?
You guys who bash cooper probably don't respect your grandparents either. So he's from another time. Jus cuz you don't inderstand him, or take him out of context don't make him wrong. Hell, with your logic, the founding fathers were wrong. Who's next, Art?
I beleive there'll be a time when some of us will say...Who was that writer guy, what'd he used to say?...:banghead: Even if you read all his stuff and only get one bit of wisdom from it, you did good. I got more respect for cooper than the president...
That was well said. Dynamic world ever changing means that some of the stuff that older people have said, will not neccessarily ring true for us today. Where are you guys books?
When was your time? You guys who bash cooper probably don't respect your grandparents either. So he's from another time. Jus cuz you don't inderstand him, or take him out of context don't make him wrong. Hell, with your logic, the founding fathers were wrong. Who's next, Art?
I beleive there'll be a time when some of us will say...Who was that writer guy, what'd he used to say?...:banghead: Even if you read all his stuff and only get one bit of wisdom from it, you did good. I got more respect for cooper than the president...
I agree that one should respect one's elders; that goes without saying. I tend to speak in hyperbole, quite often, in fact. As Tamara might say, I'm a smart alec. However the Cooper hagiography does get a little out of hand at times, especially since he so eagerly fuels it himself in his self-satisfied musings. I respect Jeff Cooper for his knowledge and contributions to the art of shooting and scoff at him for his poor attempts at expressing himself verbally. As a public figure he opens himself to criticism and, I'm sorry, his attempts at writing are a target-rich environment to someone who can string more than three words together in a coherent sentence. Understand: the content is good, the expression of it is all wrong and just harrowing to anybody who might have a flair for words. I just imagine Cooper reading his stuff and smirking with satisfaction, "this guy is a genius, witty, talented, and good looking, too." 
Understand: the content is good, the expression of it is all wrong and just harrowing to anybody who might have a flair for words. I just imagine Cooper reading his stuff and smirking with satisfaction, "this guy is a genius, witty, talented, and good looking, too." 0007
Member
Thanks for posting the site. I had lost it when I moved.
Dean Spier said:
Dean,
I didn't see YOU at Gunsite last week, but I certainly DID see Jeff visiting the 350 class on the Hanneken range (on his ATV) and that WAS a cocked and locked .45 auto on Jeff's hip.
Do you really mean to imply that Jeff's pistol was unloaded ? Or would you care to retract your comment ?
Dean,
I didn't see YOU at Gunsite last week, but I certainly DID see Jeff visiting the 350 class on the Hanneken range (on his ATV) and that WAS a cocked and locked .45 auto on Jeff's hip.
Do you really mean to imply that Jeff's pistol was unloaded ? Or would you care to retract your comment ?
One thing to keep in mind about Cooper is that he has done nothing more than we do here. He talks about his experiences, he defends his choices in firearms, and he even gives his point of view on current events and events of history. Not any different than what we do here. It is just one man's opinion. It used to be that he was different in that he expressed his views to a worldwide audience when the average Joe couldn't do that. Now we do the same thing here everyday. And, a lot of the stuff I read on-line including this forum is stuff that doesn't match my own experience. In other words I disagree with it, sometimes vehemently. What makes him any worse ? At least with him we have some knowlege of his background and I dare say it is more extensive than most.
I also met Cooper a month or two ago on a Gunsite range and he had a cocked and locked 1911 on his hip. I didn't ask him if it was loaded or not. I will be there again this Monday for 556. I won't ask about it. If it is true, I don't want to know about it. If it isn't, it would be insulting.
I also met Cooper a month or two ago on a Gunsite range and he had a cocked and locked 1911 on his hip. I didn't ask him if it was loaded or not. I will be there again this Monday for 556. I won't ask about it. If it is true, I don't want to know about it. If it isn't, it would be insulting.
Mike Irwin
Member
"It's an accurate, handy carbine. It's got lots of purposes."
Wow, God knows there are NONE of those available!
All the carbines made today are heavy and inaccurate!
And lord knows those non-scout rifles are simply too cheap to get the job done, too.
If it doesn't cost $2,500 retail (Steyr), it's not a true Scout rifle.
Wow, God knows there are NONE of those available!
All the carbines made today are heavy and inaccurate!
And lord knows those non-scout rifles are simply too cheap to get the job done, too.
If it doesn't cost $2,500 retail (Steyr), it's not a true Scout rifle.
Mike Irwin
Member
"You guys who bash cooper probably don't respect your grandparents either."
Since WHEN is disagreeing with someone the same as not respecting them?
Since I disagree with that particular point, am I showing you disrespect by doing so?
Quite frankly, that's a crock o'crap.
And I say that with the UTMOST respect.
Since WHEN is disagreeing with someone the same as not respecting them?
Since I disagree with that particular point, am I showing you disrespect by doing so?
Quite frankly, that's a crock o'crap.
And I say that with the UTMOST respect.
Again, one man's point of view.
After shooting rifles and hunting for many years, Cooper sat down and put together a criteria that he considered to be the perfect general purpose rifle. And, he had it built. Eventually due to his prominence in the shooting community he was able to get his "perfect" rifle mass produced by a major gun manufacturer. Obviously, not everyone agrees on what the perfect general purpose rifle is anymore than we agree about anything else.
For years I didn't think much about the scout rifle. It certainly wasn't mainstream. But recently I gave the matter some serious thought and I have come to the conclusion that he had a pretty good idea. Again, it is a general purpose rifle. The kind of rifle designed to do most jobs required of a rifle pretty good. I don't think it does any one job as well as a much more specialized rifle, but it is able to do all jobs fairly well. It is a rifle that was designed for the guy that might only want to own one rifle. It was a rifle designed to answer the age old question; "If I could only own one rifle....."
Like anyone who expresses their point of view to the public, a lot of people won't agree with everything they say. I personally don't see why this is any surprise.
After shooting rifles and hunting for many years, Cooper sat down and put together a criteria that he considered to be the perfect general purpose rifle. And, he had it built. Eventually due to his prominence in the shooting community he was able to get his "perfect" rifle mass produced by a major gun manufacturer. Obviously, not everyone agrees on what the perfect general purpose rifle is anymore than we agree about anything else.
For years I didn't think much about the scout rifle. It certainly wasn't mainstream. But recently I gave the matter some serious thought and I have come to the conclusion that he had a pretty good idea. Again, it is a general purpose rifle. The kind of rifle designed to do most jobs required of a rifle pretty good. I don't think it does any one job as well as a much more specialized rifle, but it is able to do all jobs fairly well. It is a rifle that was designed for the guy that might only want to own one rifle. It was a rifle designed to answer the age old question; "If I could only own one rifle....."
Like anyone who expresses their point of view to the public, a lot of people won't agree with everything they say. I personally don't see why this is any surprise.
Edward429451
member
Sorry Mike, you're prolly right on that. It seems like some posters who disagree with the man on one or two things want to throw a blanket of incredibility over the guy though.
I'll humbly retract that statement.
I'll humbly retract that statement.
Mike Irwin
Member
444,
I agree that the Scout is Col. Cooper's opinion. He's entitled to it. Lord knows some wonderful things have come out of one individuals firmly held opinions over the years.
I just really wonder, however, how valid the entire "If it ain't a Scout, it ain't
" line of thinking is, however, cause whether you like it or not, that's the aura that's grown around the entire Scout concept.
As in the previous post...
"It's an accurate, handy carbine."
It is. But so is the Remington Model 7, and similar offerings from a variety of other manufacturers.
Yet, somehow, since they haven't been blessed with nearly 20 years of reflexive writing on the subject, they're somehow insignificant entities?
I agree that the Scout is Col. Cooper's opinion. He's entitled to it. Lord knows some wonderful things have come out of one individuals firmly held opinions over the years.
I just really wonder, however, how valid the entire "If it ain't a Scout, it ain't
" line of thinking is, however, cause whether you like it or not, that's the aura that's grown around the entire Scout concept. As in the previous post...
"It's an accurate, handy carbine."
It is. But so is the Remington Model 7, and similar offerings from a variety of other manufacturers.
Yet, somehow, since they haven't been blessed with nearly 20 years of reflexive writing on the subject, they're somehow insignificant entities?
Nathaniel Firethorn
Member
Why self-loading? He doesn't justify it anywhere nearby...
- pdmoderator
El Tejon
Member
Mike, as with pistols, Cooper has used and written about many different rifles. The Remington M7 and 600 and the Ruger RSI both served as proto-Scouts.
As Uncle Jeff says, as a concept, his "Scout" is outstanding, but not without forerunners which he has long acknowledged or shortcomings which he acknowledges. As well, it is NOT the only and only rifle, but a general purpose rifle for those well-versed in riflecraft.
There is no more aura around the Scout concept than around the P7, Glock or 1911 pistol. As Cooper has written time after time, the gun is the tool, the man is the weapon.
Uncle Jeff knows what he is talking about and is vocal about saying it. This rubs people the wrong way sometimes and delights others. So be it.
pd, Uncle Jeff after pioneering instruction of the defensive (other than recreational) shotgun came to the conclusion that the self-loading shotgun had an edge over the slide-action weapon.
As Uncle Jeff says, as a concept, his "Scout" is outstanding, but not without forerunners which he has long acknowledged or shortcomings which he acknowledges. As well, it is NOT the only and only rifle, but a general purpose rifle for those well-versed in riflecraft.
There is no more aura around the Scout concept than around the P7, Glock or 1911 pistol. As Cooper has written time after time, the gun is the tool, the man is the weapon.
Uncle Jeff knows what he is talking about and is vocal about saying it. This rubs people the wrong way sometimes and delights others. So be it.
pd, Uncle Jeff after pioneering instruction of the defensive (other than recreational) shotgun came to the conclusion that the self-loading shotgun had an edge over the slide-action weapon.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Mike, as with pistols, Cooper has used and written about many different rifles."
The rifle is different from the concept for the rifle, and it's the concept that has formed the ad nauseum of 20 years worth of columns.
I know the Model 7 was a scout prototype, but it apparently just wasn't scouty enough to be a scout, so he had to continue to scout for something that he could turn into a scout...
The rifle is different from the concept for the rifle, and it's the concept that has formed the ad nauseum of 20 years worth of columns.
I know the Model 7 was a scout prototype, but it apparently just wasn't scouty enough to be a scout, so he had to continue to scout for something that he could turn into a scout...
Well said, El Teej.
The Steyr scout's biggest selling point to me is the forward mounted scope. Steyr built an aluminum receiver/rail/handguard that allows the forward mounted scope which is really very nice imho. The difficulty with pseudoscouts, if you will, is putting that for'ard scope on. Once you have tried that it is a mile ahead of a conventional mounting. Added to which is the synthetic stock with integral bipod. It is altogether a nice package and mine mounts with the ease and authority of my favorite shotgun. No, it doesn't answer every question for everybody, but it is a pretty good stab at it, now that I tried it.
Secondly, it is a Steyr, it looks funny, and it costs as much as two or three tricked out domestic products and some people can't handle that.
The value of a Steyr is pretty high to me. It is like driving a Vette compared to a Bel Air. I learned that when I sold my mountain carbine that kept 5 in 5/8". I was pretty dumb to sell it but I did. I won't sell this one!- Status
