Collectable 1911A1 quest.

[The Alaskan]

Okay folks, so...I've spent the weekend researching the idea of owning a WWII or Korean War era Army 1911A1-quite a spendy proposition. But I have one or two questions for which I couldn't find answers, and these stem from the rumor/pipe dream that DCM might one day sell 1911A1s (which I highly doubt).

Question: how did Army issue 1911A1's get into privately owned hands, and are they even legal to own?

One of the concerns surrounding the DCM sale of 1911A1s is that they are only allowed to sell rifles. So the Garands and carbines, I get. The DCM sold these rifles to individuals. But if the DCM never sold a 1911A1, and the military didn't sell them (or did they), then how did they get into private hands? Arn't all of those guns, in effect, stolen guns? (As in, Sgt. Smith snuck one home in his duffel bag.)

I'm obviously missing something because all these guys are posting their WWII era 45's on youtube and vendors are selling them on the web, so it can't be too illegal.

Second question: Does the collector market differentiate between "WWII" "Korean War" and "Vietnam War" 45's? Are guns from one era inherently more valuable than another? (Are 45s from Korea and Vietnam even available?)

 

[JTQ]

DCM sold 1911's at some point back in the 1960's, possibly earlier. I'm pretty sure we have guys on the forum that bought them at the time. They'll pop into the thread sooner or later.

 

[Lucky Derby]

There are no Korean or Vietnam era 1911A1s. The 1911s used in those conflicts are from the WWII era or earlier. In fact the US Military did not purchase any 1911s after the end of WWII, excepting those purchased in recent years for specialty units.

 

[Coyote3855]

I bought a Remington Rand 1911 from DCM in 1963 when I was 19. I think the price was about $35. Went away in a trade years later.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Some confusion in the OP.

DCM/CMP.

Past/present tense.

Current activity or lack thereof defining legality of past activity.



DCM of yesterday is not the CMP of today though CMP is an evolution of it.

DCM sold us our 1911A1 - for I think $19.95 - back... way back in the day.

Were they able to acquire 1911s today, rest assured the CMP would in fact be selling them - there simply aren't anymore available to them as with M1 Carbines and soon, as with M1 Garands.

Now and again a 1911 will show up which was the unwilling armory escapee in a heist or a one-off duffle bag stow-away but the vast majority are stand-up, legal to own pistols. If you get squeamish about one, have the numbers run.

Todd.

 

[The Alaskan]

Very good. And thanks. I knew I must be misunderstanding something.

 

[Onmilo]

Officers were allowed to purchase their service issued handgun.
General Officers are issued a service handgun and are allowed to keep them at their option upon retirement.
Many 1911A1 pistols were gifted to individual soldiers for meritorious service.At one time 1911A1 were sold as surplus through the PX System shooting ranges.
The pistols have been made available to Police Agencies and many individual officers have purchased them legally from their departments.

Many thousands of 1911A1 pistols have been released into citizens hands through legal channels.
If it wasn't for the current left wing administrations this whole issue would be a non issue.

 

[Old Fuff]

All of the 1911's sold by the DCM - going back to the 1920's came with a bill of sale. So did the Match Grade guns sold at Camp Perry. The sales were also recorded by whatever agency sold them.

Those purchased in foreign countries by U.S. distributors/dealers also had a paper trail, that may not by this date exist.

Pistols in war zones that couldn't be located were recorded as "battlefield lost," and were the most common source for bring backs - that were, and are, technically illegal - but other then some in the White House no one gives a hoot.

 

[The Alaskan]

This is all good info, and I appreciate you guys clearing the fog.

What really got me to thinking about this, was I saw a youtube video of a guy's "lunch box" 1911A1 with no serial numbers, and I put that in the same category as "war trophies." I was unaware of the "old" DCM selling them.

So, since we're on the subject, might I also ask...

If I am looking for a gun to shoot, and most likely compete with, which of the WWII manufacturers should I focus on?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

If I am looking for a gun to shoot, and most likely compete with, which of the WWII manufacturers should I focus on?

The only real difference is collectibility of the manufacturer relative to rarity. These have been arsenal/depot/unit-armorer rebuilt so many times that the vast majority which now show up as manufacturer correct are a relatively recent re-matching of parts.

Get the next one you can afford with no bubba-civie parts. Or hell, maybe just one of the several current offerings of military clone 1911/1911A1s that are now available. Save some dough and not get "taken" by shifty fellas.

Todd.

 

[JTQ]

If I am looking for a gun to shoot, and most likely compete with, which of the WWII manufacturers should I focus on?

I wouldn't do that with any of them. The newest of any of them would be 70 years old with tiny little sights. I consider them all collectors guns. Shoot them every now and then for fun, but not a lot.

If you want a similar feeling gun, with better sights, and new quality metallurgy, that can take a high round count that you'd need for competition, get a current production Colt Series 70. It will probably cost less than what most of the collectors will charge your for an original GI gun.

Colt Series 70 http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/Series70™.aspx

 

[The Alaskan]

The only real difference is collectibility of the manufacturer relative to rarity. These have been arsenal/depot/unit-armorer rebuilt so many times that the vast majority which now show up as manufacturer correct are a relatively recent re-matching of parts.

Get the next one you can afford with no bubba-civie parts. Or hell, maybe just one of the several current offerings of military clone 1911/1911A1s that are now available. Save some dough and not get "taken" by shifty fellas.

Todd.

So, not unlike my S.A. M1, rebarreled, in '56, parts mix master, etc etc.

I'm okay with that as that makes for a good shooting gun. I don't need "NIB" with "all matching numbers."

I decided to avoid the commercial guns as none seem to really be true copies of the 1911A1 (The Colt Series 70 comes close, I guess.), and 1911's, in general, are, in my opinion at least, wayyy overpriced. I feel as though I'd rather spend some extra and own a piece of history.

I was just wondering if there was one particular manufacturer that stood out as particularly well suited to being a daily shooter.

 

[Onmilo]

About 10 years back Colt made a limited run of 1911A1 pistols.
If you are really wanting a daily shooter 1911A1 made in the old way I would strongly suggest searching one of these out.
It will cost you around a grand but will be well worth the coin spent and will still be less expensive than a genuine military issue relic.

 

[AlexanderA]

The closest currently-manufactured clone to the WW2 1911A1 is the Auto Ordnance / Kahr Arms GI model. Externally it looks the same as a WW2 gun, but it has the Series 80 firing-pin safety. These can be had for $500 or so. The Series 80 parts can be removed and replaced with standard GI parts.

Original GI guns have become too pricey to used for daily shooting, IMO. The ones in premium condition can go for thousands. And of course, after shooting them much, they would no longer be in "premium" condition.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I was just wondering if there was one particular manufacturer that stood out as particularly well suited to being a daily shooter.

Nope, can't go wrong with any of them. None to avoid and none shoot better than others. They were manufactured to be - regardless of maker - essentially identical and interchangeable as to components and operator functioning.
Where things vary, they don't really matter as in the variation in Garand front sights.

Todd.

 

[The Alaskan]

Well thanks for the advice, everyone. Yeah, that Auto-Ordnance looks just like the real deal. The cheap one MSRPs at 688, which means I could get one up here for about $750-ish.

But I might just abandon this idea. For me, being a history teacher and all, it's more about owning a piece of history than just owning a gun. To be honest, if I were buying a just a handgun to shoot, it wouldn't be a 45...or even an autoloader. So buying a modern copy is just that, a copy. (Not to take anything away from the Auto Ordnance guns; I'm sure they're great shooters.)

If the WWII guns are really THAT bad that they can't be used regularly, then this may not be the thing for me. I have a little trouble believing that they're so weak that they can't be shot on a regular basis. My Garand is 70 yrs old this year and I've competed with that, and still shoot it. In fact, almost ALL of my guns are vintage. From 1930 through about 1955 or so, with most being pre WWII or just after. I hunt with them and shoot them every season.

 

[JTQ]

If the WWII guns are really THAT bad that they can't be used regularly, then this may not be the thing for me. I have a little trouble believing that they're so weak that they can't be shot on a regular basis. My Garand is 70 yrs old this year and I've competed with that, and still shoot it. In fact, almost ALL of my guns are vintage. From 1930 through about 1955 or so, with most being pre WWII or just after. I hunt with them and shoot them every season.

I suppose I'm a little unclear about what you consider regularly, and/or competition.

Hunting with a Garand every year, I suspect you may go through less than 50 rounds per year at the most. A WWII era 1911A1 could do that easily. Fifty rounds per month is probably no problem. Shooting competitions such as IDPA or USPSA, chances are good you're shooting more than 10,000 rounds per year. I suspect you'll have problems with a 70 year old gun trying to do that.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

If the WWII guns are really THAT bad that they can't be used regularly, then this may not be the thing for me.

There's no "bad" to them... well, assuming one was not a member of the; Axis, IJA/N, KPA, et al...

Most would say that it is a bit of a waste to overuse a true surplus survivor gun these days given their value.

The one above was a 1911 that a veteran- then police officer successfully competed with throughout the 50's and then recreationally shot till his death. It then fell to me and does not get pampered. The government ran untold thousands through it, he ran many more and I probably have some 3-4,000 through it. Its historical correctness is nearly permanently compromised yet its experience speaks to the soundness of the design for prolonged life well beyond Uncle Sugar letting it go.

The lower one is a rack correct 1911A1 - with rack number still - and not only gets 1,500+ a year through it but has government use and at least one rebuild behind it. Still stays loaded in the pistol rack as my "gotta run beyond anything else in the house" gun. I have limitless confidence in it.

So, are they "that bad" to shoot and rely upon for defense or recreation and even the odd lower level competition? Not a chance.

Is it "that bad" to make a real run at competing with one? Only if you feel yourself to be underserving its historical significance by "using it up" to the point of repairs and modifications which take it far from its original configuration - arsenal rebuild or otherwise.

They're up to the task but their value argues against overuse at pro/semi-pro levels. I stopped hunting with my Garand for exactly the same reason and only that reason. Still shoot the crap outa all of them and take in the odd fun level competition to boot.

All told, they're better firearms than most of the "clones" but the clones offer the same shooting experience, lower buy-in cost and don't suffer historically from repair/upgrade compromises to originality.

Todd.

 

[BlindJustice]

During WWII Colt produced the most 1911A1s. The other two
manufacturers sere Ithaca & Remington Rand. When I served
in the USN '72-'78 both ships I served on had 24 1911A1s in the
small arms locker. I always checked the make of the gun going
on watch. All Ithaca or Rem Rands no Colts.

R-

 

[The Alaskan]

I've never hunted with my Garand. Too heavy. I used to compete with it though. NRA Hi Power and Service rifle both. Shot probably 300 per month out of it, but that was back when you could afford to shoot that much.

I'm thinking NRA Bull's Eye, so what is that? about 50 rounds per match? So figure 2-3 times that per month give or take. So perhaps 2k per yr. I can't afford to shoot 10k rounds per year-not even in a sling shot using parking lot gravel.

 

[Old Fuff]

I'm thinking NRA Bull's Eye

,

Understand that if these guns do become available (which I doubt given the political issues) they will be service guns, not target pistols.

In a service gun reliability trumps target accuracy. The required standard was 3" groups @ 25 yards when fired from a machine rest. The group was measured from center-to-center of the widest shots in a 5-shot group.

Uncle Same did make some into target pistols to supply they're various shooting teams. They were required to meet the above standard at 50 yards, and had special slides, barrels, triggers and sights. If unaltered they command prices is the $1,500 to $2,000 range - and sometimes more as scarce collectables.

In most bullseye matches today a service grade pistol with its small hard-to-see sights and intentional looseness won't get you very far.

If you can, I suggest you visit some tournaments in your area. You'll meet some great people and get a better idea about the guns they use.