Colt Dragoon or not Colt Dragoon

[Calibre44]

I'm thinking of buying a Uberti Colt Dragoon. I have a Uberti Navy .36 which I love but wanted something bigger. Tried a Walker at the range ---WHAT A GUN!!!!!!!! ... but it's just too darn big. The Dragoon (2nd Model) looks like a good alternative.

Any advice on the quality of the Uberti Dragoon and shootability would be welcomed.

John

 

[Slamfire]

I have a Colt signature series third model Dragoon. All the major parts work was performed by Uberti before assembly by Colt. Also have a Uberti 1858 Remington. Have fired a second model Dragoon.

The Dragoon pistols are big pistols. Basically these are two hand pistols, they are just so big. The cylinders are huge, lots of metal between cylinders. This is a reflection of the metallurgy of the time, they did not trust the steels of the day to take the pressure. Time and experience allowed later Colt Models to have much thinner cylinder walls. The second and third model pistols take a lot of powder: my loads with the third Model were 40 grains of FFG powder, I think it could take 50 grains.

I do not like my third Model Dragoon, which is the most evolved of the series: not only is it too big, but the front sight blades on these things shoot about 14” high at 25 yards. And you cannot do much of anything to adjust windage. The front is not drift adjustable. The rear is a notch.

Let me recommend the 1858 Remington by Uberti. Worksmanship wise, it is as fine a pistol as any modern centerfire revolver. The front sight is extra tall, so I was able to file it to point of aim, and it was drift adjustable. The Remington design is clearly superior to any Colt caplock. Firstly most Colts have 12 visible screws. The Remington has six. To access the inner lock works on a Colt you have to remove six screws, three trigger guard screws, one mainspring tension screw, and two back strap screws. On a Remington you have to remove one guard screw, one grip screw, and one mainspring tension screw. The Remington only uses two side plate screws to hold in lock works, the Colt uses three. There is one tiny screw on the Remington cylinder hand that I had to unscrew to remove the hammer and the hand. Maybe there is a trick that I have not figured out yet.

The cylinder in the Remington design is easily removed by dropping the ramrod and pulling out the cylinder pin. The parts fit is tight and requires jiggling, but it is far better than the Colt. The Colt requires an involved process: First, removal of the barrel wedge. This entails loosening of the wedge screw, and then driving the cylinder wedge out to the side. For me I need a drift in addition to a rawhide mallet.

The Remington closed frame prevents a cap from getting between the hammer and the frame. It is not unusual in six shots to have one or more exploded caps come off a Colt nipple and fall in between the hammer and the frame. If a cap falls into the lock works, sometimes it takes needle nosed pliers to clear the debris. If you fire a Colt enough, you will learn to flick your wrist as you cock it, in an attempt to toss the busted cap clear of the revolver.

The Remington nipples are slightly angled outward, making it easier to push a cap on. The Colt nipples are perpendicular to the cylinder. There are notches next to the nipple which are just the right size to clear a capping tool. The Remington has safety notches between the cylinder, so does the third model dragoon, don’t think the second model does. .


If you just like Colt type pistols, you might be happier with a M1860.

Surprisingly, the Dragoon with a full charge is not that powerful. So you are not really going to loose much by going to a M1860 Colt or a M1858 Remington.

Colt 3rd Model Dragoon

24 July 1999 T= 100 ° F
142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Thrown GOEX FFG RWS cap


Ave Vel = 785
Std Dev = 30
ES 73
Low 741
High 814
N = 4


142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain thrown GOEX FFG CCI#11 cap

24 July 1999 T=100 ° F 90 °F at 930!
Ave Vel = 837
Std Dev = 18
ES 56
Low 814
High 870
N = 8

 

[Snaggletooth]

I shoot Dragoons and 25 yards is to close. We shoot at 50 or 100 yards. My colt still shoots high at 50 yards. I shoot 5o grains, lube pill and a 457 round ball. The ASM shoots POA at 50 yards with 40 grain and POA at 100 with 50 grains. Both need 2 hjands for any accuracy.. Have fun. I love to shoot my Remmie. I score better with it than any pistol that I hav.

 

[mykeal]

I have both a Uberti Second Model Dragoon and a Colt Signature Series Third Model Dragoon:


As he said, the Sig Series was assembled from Uberti parts.

The quality of both guns is excellent; the grip finish and some details on the Colt Sig Series is nicer, and as a result I tend to shoot the 2nd Model more often.

I think the Dragoon is a hoot to shoot. I once shut down the outdoor range where I shoot by emptying the cylinder as fast as I could cock and fire; there was so much smoke nobody could see down range. There was a woman with a young teenage boy two places down; she broke and ran, and the boy cheered. The range master laughed out loud and then said, in his best official voice, "Don't you EVER do that again!" Then he laughed some more. Great fun.

I also own an 1858 Remington; mine is a Pietta, but it's still a fine gun. It's also fun to shoot; however, I like the Dragoon (and my Uberti 1860 Colt New Army) more. It's just a boomer. Slamfire1 makes some very good points about the Remington, but I would disagree on one thing: there is a substantial difference between the power of a 'Dragoon and the Remington. Also, mine are both somewhat more accurate than his experience, although both still shoot substantially high at 25 yards; they were intentionally designed to do that.

So, if you want accurate shooting to POA that does not require compensation for the sights, and only slightly less effort to disassemble (there is no trick to removing the hammer/hand assembly - you gotta undo the screw) go for the Remmy. If you want a strong, powerful gun that needs some getting used to and offhand POA compensation, go for the Dragoon. And enjoy the looks from the other shooters at the range.

 

[oneshooter]

All shot at 25yds. Load is 45gr Goex 3f, 457rb, lubed wad. Shot two handed.

There is a 1860 44cal, 1861 36cal, and a 38 S&W conversion of a 1861 for size comparison.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Dienekes]

I have had a Uberti '61 Navy for a few years now; nice gun, shoots to the sights and well balanced.

Picked up a Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon about a year ago as I have always liked them. It is a big gun and anyone who slung them around one-handed was a rugged individual indeed. As noted, it shoots high even out to 25 yds and beyond, so holding off is indicated. I pretty well knew what I was getting into so none of this was a surprise. The quality is very good, as was the Uberti Walker that I got for a paperweight.

The '61 is the one that gets shot more.

 

[Calibre44]

Many thanks for all the detailed advice guys – really appreciate it.

The problem now is which one to choose!! – the Remmie or the Dragoon? So with careful consideration of all the points made and in the absence of my banker (the wife) I have made an executive decision and will buy both!!

I think a second model Uberti Dragoon and a Uberti Stainless Steel Remmie with target sights should do the trick. One for fun and one for accuracy. Now its off to my local gun shop before the wife gets back from the shops.

Thanks again
John

 

[O.S.O.K.]

buying decision

John - I have a Uberti Walker and a Uberti Dragoon 3rd Model - there is 1/2 pound difference in weight. They are both very well constructed and a great deal for the money. But if you didn't like the Walker, then you aren't likely to take a shine to the Dragoon.

Definately go with the Remington - I love my Pietta which is a target model. If I was going with a fixed sight 58, I'd go with the Uberti as they instal the front sight with a dovetail which is windage adjustable.

If you want to buy two right now (why not?) then get an 1860 Army .44 - you'll want one eventually any way. I think for handling and pointing, this is on par with the 1851 Navy - only in a larger caliber. I've got a couple of Piettas and love em. Only dis that I have on the Pietta's is that the cylinder latch spring is too robust and causes the cylinder stop to peen the cylinders - this can easily be fixed by replacing the spring (10 min. job) with a piano wire spring from Brownell's ($7). But you may as well just start with a Uberti as I don't think they have that problem.

So, long story short, I'd recommend going with an 1860 and the 1858 that you described - though I don't think Uberti makes a stainless target model? I know that Pietta does.

 

[Calibre44]

Thanks for that.

I've ordered the Remington. Over here we only have one gunshop that is authorised to import Uberti products. Luckily Uberti make a SS model but it has to be ordered from your side of the pond which will take 3 months.. It was the same when I ordered my Navy 36 (beautiful gun)

Still not decided on the Dragoon although the Army is very pleasing to the eye (I have a replica of one - not the same I know but at least I can display it on the wall). I just love the look of the colts and there is something about the feel that I just can't explain.

Sadly since our governments over reaction to handguns some years ago when they banned the private ownership of handguns, BP is all we can buy to shoot. Fortunately though I love'em! The irony though is that you can still buy long barrelled handguns in 357 and 44 magnums. (the law is an ass).:banghead:

Predictably since the handgun ban gun crime in some of our large inner cities has increased markedly - you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the criminals didn't hand their guns in just law-abiding shooters. You can buy an illegal handgun if you know where to look but you have to jump through ‘hoop after hoop’ to get the Police to allow you to own a gun legally. We have some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

The funny thing is that the Olympics are over here in London in a few years time and as .22 pistol shooting is an Olympic sport the government is trying to find a way around the law to allow it to take place! – it just makes you laugh.

We can still own shotguns and most rifles so long as they aren't semi or automatic. We can own a semi in .22 though and I have a 10.22 Ruger (who hasn't!!). My favourite rifle is a Winchester 94 that I bought last year in 44 magnum just before the production ceased - absolutely beautiful and quite accurate with iron sights out to 200 yards.

anyway ... thanks again for the advice
John

 

[O.S.O.K.]

well

At least you can shoot your cap and ball revolvers - I suppose those require a license too....

I do hope that things get straightened out over there and further that we don't get unstraightened out over here!

I know that the UK polititians used to point to the USA and say "see how gun ownership causes high crime!" - not hearing that any more are we?

Glad you were able to hook up with that stainless Uberti

Enjoy!

 

[mec]

" magnums. (the law is an ass)".

" If the law supposes that, the the law is a ass, a idiot!"

One of the greatest lines in English literature.

 

[Calibre44]

“At least you can shoot your cap and ball revolvers - I suppose those require a license too.... “

Absolutely right Mec. Let me take you through the many ‘hoops’ you have to jump through to get a licence to shoot BP revolvers (or any gun) in England. Firstly you need to join a Government approved gun club and become a full member; next you apply to the Police for a licence to purchase your gun giving 2 referees who can vouch for your good character – you have to apply for permission for every gun you want to buy before you buy it and prove that you have a good cause and a valid reason for wanting it. Next a Firearms Officer (FO) visits you in your house and interviews you. Then he looks around the house to make sure it is safe and secure; then he looks at your gun safe and tries to rip it off the wall. (you have to keep all firearms locked away at all times except for cleaning and transportation). He may contact your doctor and also will check that you haven’t got a criminal record. Then he goes away does some more checks on you and if he says yes then you get your licence.

If you want to purchase anymore guns then you have to apply in writing to the FO giving all the reasons why and he may allow you to buy them. He can at anytime visit your house unannounced to check that your guns are kept safe. If you are out he will often ask your wife or kids if they know where the spare keys to the safe are kept– if they say they do then your licence can be revoked and the guns confiscated. (only you are supposed to know!)

To buy BP you have to apply to the Police Explosives Officer for a separate licence. He will do the same type of visit but this time make sure you have a lockable approved wooden box to keep the BP in and that it is secured to the fabric of the house. Then you have to apply to the Health and Safety Commission for another licence to transport the BP. ‘Lost the will to live yet!!??’ :banghead:– a lot of shooters do but it is worth it in the end!

They sometimes don’t like you owning more than one gun of the same calibre. I got my two .44 authorised to buy since the Remmie is for target shooting and the Dragoon/Army would be to shoot in competitions for that class of gun. Giving the reason ‘for fun’ will not get you anywhere! Luckily for me the FO agreed with my reasons. If I want another .44 it would probably be turned down.

The company I referred to over here for importing Uberti is Henry Krank

Click on the link : http://www.henrykrank.com/
Click: ‘Download catalogue’ on the left hand side under menu;
Select: ‘Muzzle Loading Pistol Percussion & Flintlock’ from section 1 (you’ll need Adobe Acrobat to view it)
Have a look – the SS Remmie is on page 26 ref U101

Then gasp at how much we have to pay for them – just double the prize for an approx dollar equivalent

We shooters here really envy you guys from the states. I buy ‘Guns and Ammo’ from time to time and drool over the guns you can purchase.

John

 

[mec]

How accessible are shooting ranges -less formal places to shoot? I was riding through the west of England a couple of decades ago and heards somebody banging away. It was out in the sticks and I suppose It was some landed gentry " murdering magpies in the garden" as Wodehouse put it.

 

[rusty from italy]

This sound terrible:banghead:

Let me take you through the many ‘hoops’ you have to jump through to get a licence to shoot BP revolvers (or any gun) in England. Firstly you need to join a Government approved gun club and become a full member; next you apply to the Police for a licence to purchase your gun giving 2 referees who can vouch for your good character – you have to apply for permission for every gun you want to buy before you buy it and prove that you have a good cause and a valid reason for wanting it. Next a Firearms Officer (FO) visits you in your house and interviews you. Then he looks around the house to make sure it is safe and secure; then he looks at your gun safe and tries to rip it off the wall. (you have to keep all firearms locked away at all times except for cleaning and transportation). He may contact your doctor and also will check that you haven’t got a criminal record. Then he goes away does some more checks on you and if he says yes then you get your licence.

Here in Italy we get fear everytime a crime is done with gun, politicians of every colours claim to a gun ban and control, like in the British, civil democracy, were gun is under a strong control!!
Fortunately now our govern has more and biggest internal problem to think to firearms

bye
Rusty

 

[BigG]

Calibre 44: I saw your note in the other thread. The Dragoon is a nice revolver and I hope you like it!

 

[Calibre44]

"How accessible are shooting ranges -less formal places to shoot? I was riding through the west of England a couple of decades ago and heards somebody banging away. It was out in the sticks and I suppose It was some landed gentry " murdering magpies in the garden" as Wodehouse put it."

That’s a coincidence as I live in the SW of England. In answer to your question, a lot of shotgun shoots can be quite informal. You can put your shotgun in the car and drive out in the country on Sunday mornings and quite often hear a shoot going on. Often it is a local farmer who has set up a clay pigeon shot and anyone can join in.

Shooting ranges for full bore rifles and BP shooting is another matter. Most of our cities have a few ranges dotted around them, which encourage interested people to join. Out-door ranges are not so common. I’m a member of two clubs – one is in-door (two 20m ranges for .22 shooting in prone or free standing and a 10m precision air rifle range) and will encourage anyone to join to promote shooting – especially young people.

My other club is out-door where you can shoot BP and full bore out to 25m and 50m. You have to download your cases though to reduce the FPS of the round and also to keep the noise down so as not to upset the residents. Its very informal and has been going since 1970. It has a limit of 60 members so you have to join a waiting list (dead men’s shoes) The only criteria is that you most already hold a firearms certificate.

Our NRA is situated in Bisley (famous range) East of London where all disciplines are catered for up to 1000m. I won a Quigley fun bucket shoot a few years ago using my Winnie 94 at 200m – best I have ever shot it at that distance. I think the stars were in the right alignment for me that day.
John

 

[Calibre44]

This sound terrible

That's not the half of it Rusty - a few years ago the Gov banned Brococks - revolvers that use a small air cartridge (about the size of a .38 shell) that you pump up, unscrew the nose cone and pop a air gun pellet in. The cartridges provide a max muzzle velocity of no more than 6 foot pounds. (are you familiar with these?)

Well some criminal managed to convert one to fire a live round so the Gov over reacted as usual and made them a 'section 5 firearm' this means that you hare to store them in a gun cabinet, have them licensed and are not able to sell or buy them, and if they break them a gunsmith won't touch them as it's against the law.

You had two choices if you owned one 1) hand them in to be crushed with no compensation. My 4 Brococks are worth over £1000! so I DON'T THINK SO!!!or 2) apply for a licence to keep them which costs money, have to get a cabinet etc etc. I was lucky as I already own a firearms certificate but most people either handed them in with no compensation or were ignorant of the law and still have them (5 year jail sentence for possession) - THEY ARE AIR PISTOLS AT THE END OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rant over!

 

[mec]

They had a range set up for those things at an NRA annual meeting quite a few years ago. The booth guy was keeping busy recharging the cartridges.

 

[Calibre44]

Hi Mec

I've got a Uberti Single Action Army 5.5 inch barrel chambered to take these cartridges. Cost £250 (nearly $500 in your money). If the Gov thinks I'm going to hand it in the be crushed into useless metal they can kiss my a.s

The trigger and bolt spring broke last year. Took me ages to find a replacement - had to say it was a blank firer.

 

[Afy]

I knew there was an upside to France.

Black Powder you only need to a legal resident over 18 years of age.

For the fun stuff you need to be a member of a shooting club or have a hunting license. No limitation on the number of guns in Cat V and below...
1,2,3,4 have limitations. Handguns you need to go file a request for approval, alongwith a letter from the club saying you do know how to shoot etc.
For Cat 1 and 4 there is a limitation of 7 weapons.
No inspections that I know off.

Cat 1: Military Weapons : Auto's, Semi's in .308, 5.56, 5.54, .45 auto, 9 mm etc etc. (The semi versions take about 6 months to a year for approval on an average. The auto's can take a year or more). Generally you get the permission.

Cat 2: Havent heard of these weapons
Cat 3: Explosives
Cat 4: Generally hand guns in calbiers other than .45, 9 mm but including .22lr except single shot (military calibers). Semi auto rifles with mag capacities > 10, and Stuff like Dragunov's converted for 300 Savage, AK's to .222 etc.
Cat 5: Hunting and Sport Weapons: all calbers excluding .22 lr and .17. Semi Auto shotguns, pump action shot guns
Cat 6: My Favorite: Paint Ball guns, Air guns over 10 joules, Knuckle dusters, Bayonets, Mace etc.
Cat 7: Shotguns without a magazine. i.e. Over Under, Side By Side or single shot. .22 LR rifles with magazine capacities under 10.
Cat 8: No license required: Blank firing guns, Black Poweder guns, Replica's

Until a couple of years ago shotguns and .22lr rifles could often be bought at boot sales without any licensing requirements.

 

[Calibre44]

well they banned handguns in Southern Ireland years ago and found that it had no effect on gun crime - what a surprise!!! so they re-introduced private ownership. Now that's a sensible grown up government!

 

[O.S.O.K.]

Well lest anyone in the UK thinks that ongoing efforts

to educate the public and embarass the current government's lack of logic, know that in the US, our efforts seem to be paying off some. The recent shooting at Virginia Tech was followed with the usual vitreole from the Brady Bunch and friends... the response was a collective yawn! How nice for a change. They also always push for polls asking about gun control following these type of incidents and about 3 out of every 4 polls that I saw were anti-gun control - against increased restrictions, etc. and there's a lot of talk about allowing students and others on campuses to carry (properly licensed of course).

The key to this I think is the conservative media - Fox News and all of the conservative talk radio shows - Rush Limbaugh having the largest listenership - but also Michael Savage, Sean Hanity, etc.

So, I would council working on the media as that is after all where most people get their "information" and most alas are too lazy to look into things on their own.... Good ol capitalism was on our side with this here - there's money in it

What a giant waste of money all this licensing and tracking of law-abiding people is.

Oh, and as an aside, you'll be happy to know that you influenced me to make another purchase of my own - a Uberti 1851 - original .36 caliber which is my first smaller bore cap and ball

 

[Calibre44]

and there's a lot of talk about allowing students and others on campuses to carry (properly licensed of course).

like it!! ... it would have been interesting to see how far that guy would have got shooting people that could shoot back!!

delighted to be of service with the Navy - I'm sure you won't be disappointed as it is a lovely looking gun with a great feel and pointability - also great fun to shoot of course.