Colt Kings Super Target OMM, timing

[PotatoJudge]

I picked up this gun over the weekend at a local show. Looks like a 1940 manufacture. Good shape but shot a lot. Honest wear and mostly intact bluing. The gun has a factory heavy barrel, Kings vent rib, Patridge front sight with mirror in the base, Kings cockeye hammer, short action conversion, and action work. I believe the trigger and backstrap knurling were factory. Cylinder shows some evidence of prior poor timing, but the notches, leads, and ratchet are good.

When I got the gun I asked if I could dry fire it, and the seller said no but that I could work the action. The gun checked out for timing, carry up, lock up, etc working the action slow and single action. However in double action dry firing at home something odd happens. The bolt is hopping out of the notch/skipping over it, allowing the cylinder to over rotate and the gun to fire out of lockup. The bolt drops in the middle 1/3 of the lead, so early enough even for quicker shooting given normal bolt return. The hand will push the cylinder to just a hair beyond the bolt/notch engagement point so that I have to let off the trigger slightly to get it to rotate back. Good for solid lockup, but is this appropriate?

I should mention I have the Kuhnhausen manual and have studied it quite a bit working on a very worn D frame.

First, I stripped and cleaned the gun. Carbon and varnish/lubricant removed and the problem actually maybe got worse :roll eyes:

The bolt spring had a kink/bend/stretch on the frame side, so I have ordered a couple new ones. I hope that fixes it.

In the meantime, while the bolt notch fit into the cylinder appropriately out of the gun, it was worn (possibly from prior timing issues) and didn't engage much when working the action. Wondering if this might be a contributing factor, I stoned the stop to allow it to engage further then had to rework the rebound lever to compensate for the prior adjustment. After that, a single cylinder catches slightly since the bolt drops a hair later, so the top of the bolt was dressed which it looked like it needed anyway. The bolt now has room to more fully engage the notches, but return is sluggish and incomplete HOPEFULLY because of the bad spring.

I don't want to mess with the hand unless absolutely necessary, but stoning the lower notch to stop the cylinder from rotating that last millimeter or two would help timing but possibly hurt lockup.

So my question to those familiar with the action: am I going about this right? Would you have done any different (except replace the spring before altering any parts)? What's the name of this condition, if any?

The regrettable part is this: after doing this I half feel like it's a potato judge action rather than the Kings action that I wanted and paid for. I know that's not the case as the rest of the action has been worked thoroughly, but it would be nice to know the gun is running with the "expert" treatment.

The trigger is incredible though and I can't wait to shoot it so I can decide between 158 gr LSWC or 148 gr HBWC.

 

[dfariswheel]

Install a new spring first.

Make sure the bolt is free to rotate, but isn't loose.

 

[PotatoJudge]

The spring came from Numrich but had to be trimmed a couple of coils. Happy to report after all my work the action is as smooth if not smoother than when I bought the gun.

Items repaired:
1. Bolt stop adjusted so bolt engages cylinder notches more fully
2. Bolt head dressed to have more "flat" rather than "peak" and to allow the cylinder to begin it's initial rotation without catching
3. Timing adjusted so bolt pops back up in the last 1/3 of the notch rather than the initial 1/3. The middle 1/3 would be nice, but the enemy of good is better
4. Timing adjusted so the bolt lowers earlier
5. Bolt return spring replaced
6. Grime and light corrosion removed

The problem of the bolt bouncing out/skipping over the notch has been fixed. Working the action faster than I would ever shoot DA works great. Working the DA as fast as I can allows throw by. Is this a problem, or should I try to get the bolt to drop in the middle 1/3 of the notch?
As the gun is shot, wears, and the timing needs to be adjusted again is the normal pattern for the bolt to drop later (it seems like it is from handling old loose, worn actions at gun shows)?

I like this action, but it really can be challenging to work on. For my part, I really want to get decent at working on these guns as so many of them need a few things to get back to firing condition and there are so few options for professional repair it's often time and cost prohibitive. I would say the majority of old Colts I handle at gun shows have one issue or another. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be reflected in the price.

Dfariswheel, thanks for responding and for all your posts that came before this that have helped get a couple of my guns back in order.

 

[pokute]

Hi PotatoJudge, I joined THR just because I saw your post about a Super Target! Not that I have anything particularly useful to say about it...

I shoot my Super Target a lot. Usually SA. Fantastic trigger, and always gets puzzled looks at the range.

I am not a good enough 'smith yet to comment on whether the timing on your gun is "good enough" with any authority. The heavy cylinder can develop quite a bit of momentum, and it might be better for it to fly past rather than have it smack the bolt. The cylinder on a 38 Shooting Master could probably shear the bolt clean off!

Since you know how finely mated the internals are on the gun, I assume you don't actually shoot it fast DA.

 

[Jim K]

Another thing to look at in that situation is the "ball" of the bolt (cylinder stop). It should be sloped a bit, with the high end toward the direction from which the cylinder will come. The slant allows the bolt to begin to rise into the notch as soon as the leading edge leaves the leade, rather than needing the whole ball to enter the notch before it drops.

To see what I mean, observe that in the Colt, the notch is not parallel to the bottom of the frame; it is off to the side and at an angle. The bolt should match that angle.

(Don't leave the bolt ball sharp, though. It should be rounded a bit.)

Jim

 

[4v50 Gary]

If a bolt pops up too soon, it means that its tail is falling off the rebound lever shelf too fast. It could be that the rebound lever needs to be flattened (but you already tweaked it).

 

[PotatoJudge]

pokute, welcome to THR! I did some steel poppers single action at Clark's range this weekend and it shoots great.

Jim K and 45-70 Gary, the Colt shop manual describes some of the geometry of the bolt shape including the leading and trailing edge bevels as well as the rebound lever functions. It's a pretty neat action. I may have been unclear, but the bolt is dropping late AKA in the 1/3 of the lead closest to the notch. I'll probably work on getting it into the middle 1/3.

Leaving the bolt sharp and dropping too early is a great way to score the cylinder!