- Status
Mizar
Member
Comment on what exactly? You have three issues, clearly visible from the video. Why don't you start with the advise that was given?
Yes, I am doing that. I also thought this might be of interest to anyone interested in the mechanics of the SAA and do not necessarily have the gunsmith knowledge to fully understand the problems, like me. A few problems were indeed pointed out to me: Hammer half-cock notch broken and filed, trigger probably too short, hand worn out and bolt rounded surface filed to allow half-cock in the wrong place... Now, you might know exactly how these parts interact together, I don't. So I hope that maybe some knowledgeable people will care to comment, maybe explain things a bit and enlight everyone else. Isn't that what a forum is for?
Merry Christmas.
Gil.
Merry Christmas.
Gil.
Ive got very little knowledge when it comes to handguns, and revolvers in general, but i THINK i understand what the issues are.
You basically need to replace your hammer, hand, and possibly trigger. I fitted a pawl (same thing as a hand?) to my superblack hawk, and that wasnt that hard, but i would be more concerned with trying to fit parts on an old SAA.
Also, and this is a question to the forums, some who was good at welding build up the lost metal and re grind, and harden the contact surfaces?
You basically need to replace your hammer, hand, and possibly trigger. I fitted a pawl (same thing as a hand?) to my superblack hawk, and that wasnt that hard, but i would be more concerned with trying to fit parts on an old SAA.
Also, and this is a question to the forums, some who was good at welding build up the lost metal and re grind, and harden the contact surfaces?
Mizar
Member
Gil, I will offer my comments until some of the experts come in:
If this revolver is yours and you want to know exactly how the mechanism works, you can get a copy of "Colt single action revolvers manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen - you can either find it on Brownells.fr (70.49 Euro), or order it from Brownells.com for $37.99 (they do ship international orders): https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...lvers-shop-manual-volumes-i-ii-prod25724.aspx
Kuhnhausen's series of shop manuals are wonderful books if you are willing to work on your firearms, but they do require some gunsmithing skills, knowledge and proper tools - in general, they are a set of specific training manuals for gunsmiths.
1. You have cylinder endshake (cylinder's front to back movement) that looks a little bit excessive - address that issue first as excessive endshake can have an effect on hand timing. If I remember correctly, Colt specified for no more than 0.08 mm (0.003") and no less than 0.03 mm (0.001") endplay. You can either fit a new oversized cylinder bushing, or go the quick & dirty way - put a hardened shim with the required thickness in front of the bushing (you can cut a shim from a feeler gauge).
2. Except for the broken half cock notch the hammer looks fine. I believe that you can still use that hammer without problems, even with the broken half cock notch - looks like it has enough edge left to operate somewhat OK. Or, you can have it welded and reshaped to the correct dimensions.
3. Bolt looks fine - at least from the picture no alteration of the left leg is visible. What I think is happening is that the left leg, the one that rides on the hammer cam (left and right directions are with the barrel facing away from you), has bend inwards, away from the cam, thus allowing for late pick up and an early drop. You can correct that with carefully bending that leg to the left, away from the bolt - that would allow for proper contact with the hammer. The bolt leg should be resting firmly, with pressure, on the hammer. No slop allowed. Bolt should start retracting at the same instance as the hammer starts to move. Drop timing (releasing of the bolt to lock the cylinder) should be addressed after the hand and the trigger are fitted.
4. The trigger's sear (the tip that contacts the hammer) seems to be shortened - either an unfortunate attempt for a trigger job, or the tip was broken and someone grind it down and reshape it in an attempt to salvage the part. You can have that trigger welded and refit (a skilled gunsmith job), or fit a new part. I believe that Uberti parts will fit the original Colts without problems, but the do require proper adjustment. Ideally, the trigger should engage the full cock notch just before the back of hammer touches the frame.
5. The hand seems to be worn - it picks up the cylinder late. Only after you corrected the above mentioned issues you can mess with the hand. It can be stretched to some degree with a hammer and a flat punch, or a new one (Uberti) fitted. When you are done with the hand, check bolt drop timing and correct it if needed - it should drop one full width in front of the bolt slot in the cylinder.
6. For all of the above first read carefully the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual - those issues you have with the revolver and the proper way of correcting them are explained there in details.
7. Have fun with that gun!
8. Merry Christmas to you also!
If this revolver is yours and you want to know exactly how the mechanism works, you can get a copy of "Colt single action revolvers manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen - you can either find it on Brownells.fr (70.49 Euro), or order it from Brownells.com for $37.99 (they do ship international orders): https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...lvers-shop-manual-volumes-i-ii-prod25724.aspx
Kuhnhausen's series of shop manuals are wonderful books if you are willing to work on your firearms, but they do require some gunsmithing skills, knowledge and proper tools - in general, they are a set of specific training manuals for gunsmiths.
1. You have cylinder endshake (cylinder's front to back movement) that looks a little bit excessive - address that issue first as excessive endshake can have an effect on hand timing. If I remember correctly, Colt specified for no more than 0.08 mm (0.003") and no less than 0.03 mm (0.001") endplay. You can either fit a new oversized cylinder bushing, or go the quick & dirty way - put a hardened shim with the required thickness in front of the bushing (you can cut a shim from a feeler gauge).
2. Except for the broken half cock notch the hammer looks fine. I believe that you can still use that hammer without problems, even with the broken half cock notch - looks like it has enough edge left to operate somewhat OK. Or, you can have it welded and reshaped to the correct dimensions.
3. Bolt looks fine - at least from the picture no alteration of the left leg is visible. What I think is happening is that the left leg, the one that rides on the hammer cam (left and right directions are with the barrel facing away from you), has bend inwards, away from the cam, thus allowing for late pick up and an early drop. You can correct that with carefully bending that leg to the left, away from the bolt - that would allow for proper contact with the hammer. The bolt leg should be resting firmly, with pressure, on the hammer. No slop allowed. Bolt should start retracting at the same instance as the hammer starts to move. Drop timing (releasing of the bolt to lock the cylinder) should be addressed after the hand and the trigger are fitted.
4. The trigger's sear (the tip that contacts the hammer) seems to be shortened - either an unfortunate attempt for a trigger job, or the tip was broken and someone grind it down and reshape it in an attempt to salvage the part. You can have that trigger welded and refit (a skilled gunsmith job), or fit a new part. I believe that Uberti parts will fit the original Colts without problems, but the do require proper adjustment. Ideally, the trigger should engage the full cock notch just before the back of hammer touches the frame.
5. The hand seems to be worn - it picks up the cylinder late. Only after you corrected the above mentioned issues you can mess with the hand. It can be stretched to some degree with a hammer and a flat punch, or a new one (Uberti) fitted. When you are done with the hand, check bolt drop timing and correct it if needed - it should drop one full width in front of the bolt slot in the cylinder.
6. For all of the above first read carefully the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual - those issues you have with the revolver and the proper way of correcting them are explained there in details.
7. Have fun with that gun!
8. Merry Christmas to you also!
Last edited:
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,759
Pretty good Mizar.
Gil, The bolt arm (left one) is worn on the outside edge where it falls off of the cam much too early. Bending it out may get you some, but probably not all of what you need. The hand is defiantly short. The bolt pickup is actually ok as it is supposed to keep the cylinder locked while in the safety notch but should move as soon as the cycle continues from "safety".
Best thing to do is install the trigger and check for positive engagement. Your trigger is your indicator for " length of cycle". Install the hand and check for full carry up (rotation fully for the next chamber). Full cock and cylinder lockup should be simultaneous. Shorten the hand (second finger) as needed to arrive at this setting (the hammer shouldn't contact the backstrap at any time). When lockup and full cock are simultaneous, bolt drop can be set. If it is still dropping ahead of the approach, a new bolt is needed. Ideally, as Mizar posted, one bolt width in front of the notch is what you are looking for (later is too late).
Mike
Gil, The bolt arm (left one) is worn on the outside edge where it falls off of the cam much too early. Bending it out may get you some, but probably not all of what you need. The hand is defiantly short. The bolt pickup is actually ok as it is supposed to keep the cylinder locked while in the safety notch but should move as soon as the cycle continues from "safety".
Best thing to do is install the trigger and check for positive engagement. Your trigger is your indicator for " length of cycle". Install the hand and check for full carry up (rotation fully for the next chamber). Full cock and cylinder lockup should be simultaneous. Shorten the hand (second finger) as needed to arrive at this setting (the hammer shouldn't contact the backstrap at any time). When lockup and full cock are simultaneous, bolt drop can be set. If it is still dropping ahead of the approach, a new bolt is needed. Ideally, as Mizar posted, one bolt width in front of the notch is what you are looking for (later is too late).
Mike
Last edited:
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,759
The bolt should only start to move immediately after the safety notch. The cylinder should start turning (carrying up) as soon as the bolt clears the notch.
I think you really should get the hand length done first. That dictates the start /stop of the cycle. Then you can fit the bolt to those parameters because the sear length is a constant and so is the full cock notch. With the trigger and bolt (preferably the old one if you still have it. It will allow somewhat of a usable function) installed, install the combo spring with just enough tension to allow function. Now you can check the length of the hand. If the bolt locks the cylinder before you reach full cock, the hand is too long. You'll need to remove material from the second finger on the hand. If you have lockup at full cock simultaneously, length is good. (Of course, lockup after full cock means you'll need to stretch the hand.)
Now, with the new bolt head fitted to the notches, install the new bolt. (We're still checking hand length) The top finger should engage the cyl ratchet after the bolt head clears the locking notch. If the cyl binds because the bolt hasn't cleared the notch, the top finger needs some material removed. When the top finger has been adjusted and cyl carry up starts appropriately, you can time the bolt drop. It should drop just inside the approach to the locking notch. More than likely, the drop will be quite late which will allow fitting.
Mike
I think you really should get the hand length done first. That dictates the start /stop of the cycle. Then you can fit the bolt to those parameters because the sear length is a constant and so is the full cock notch. With the trigger and bolt (preferably the old one if you still have it. It will allow somewhat of a usable function) installed, install the combo spring with just enough tension to allow function. Now you can check the length of the hand. If the bolt locks the cylinder before you reach full cock, the hand is too long. You'll need to remove material from the second finger on the hand. If you have lockup at full cock simultaneously, length is good. (Of course, lockup after full cock means you'll need to stretch the hand.)
Now, with the new bolt head fitted to the notches, install the new bolt. (We're still checking hand length) The top finger should engage the cyl ratchet after the bolt head clears the locking notch. If the cyl binds because the bolt hasn't cleared the notch, the top finger needs some material removed. When the top finger has been adjusted and cyl carry up starts appropriately, you can time the bolt drop. It should drop just inside the approach to the locking notch. More than likely, the drop will be quite late which will allow fitting.
Mike
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
