Fixed it! Thanks, tired? I recon. As modified post, any one want to sell one?
Combat Shotguns: Dying?
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
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Sheepdog1968
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I was fortunate in that Louis Awerbuck came to my home range often. Without having to travel for training the overall cost to take a class from him was a bargain and I would have gladly paid twice as much had that been the rate. As such, I took a lot of classes from him and got to know him quite well. I asked him two separate times after we knew each other extremely well (meaning we were past some of the more generic answers). I asked him what weapon platform he thought was best for home defense (not some ends of days scenario - he had different thoughts about that). He felt it was a shotgun. He felt it was the best power delivery system using either buck or slugs. I asked about the slugs vs buck because he preferred slugs as it narrowed some of the considerations one needed to worry about with buck shot. Now, Louis is just one person as well. But, he taught for three plus decades and was heavily involved in his profession so he got to see a lot of after action reports. If Louis said it was a shotgun, I believe him. Having said that, Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch prefers an AR. So, there is no universal answer. As such I don't think either rifle or shotgun will disappear for options available to purchase.
As for the end of days scenario in which you need to leave your domicile and may never return and no destination in mind. Then, Louis preferred a rifle and a pistol. Mostly he care about reliability. There he felt it was an AK and either a Glock 17 or 19. Louis tended to dislike the AR platform and compared them to a Ferrari. Very high performance but more prone to breakdowns.
I was ignorant when I picked my home defense weapon to be a shotgun in 1990 but over the years since and with more training, I don't see a reason to change. I also believe the market and advertisers tend to push different systems over the years to facilitate sales. By the way, I would sleep just as soundly if all I had as a home defense weapon was an AR.
As for the end of days scenario in which you need to leave your domicile and may never return and no destination in mind. Then, Louis preferred a rifle and a pistol. Mostly he care about reliability. There he felt it was an AK and either a Glock 17 or 19. Louis tended to dislike the AR platform and compared them to a Ferrari. Very high performance but more prone to breakdowns.
I was ignorant when I picked my home defense weapon to be a shotgun in 1990 but over the years since and with more training, I don't see a reason to change. I also believe the market and advertisers tend to push different systems over the years to facilitate sales. By the way, I would sleep just as soundly if all I had as a home defense weapon was an AR.
AI&P Tactical
Member
It is also becoming rare in Law Enforcement. A very good indicator is that because I have to recertify my LE Armorer Certificates every three years, I always go to the first Factory Class in Ilion. That has always been in April and there have always been about 25 to 30 people in that first class. However, this year the first class was not until April and there were only 10 of us.
Most of the reason have been covered in this post. I will simply add that there is more initial fire power in a 12 ga shotgun then in a Sub Machine Gun or AR-15 Rifle. On my web site www.aiptactical.com is a red link titled "Gun Fight" and describes a demonstration that I witnessed at the Metro Dade Police range that proves it.
So, to deal with a threat against your life it seems one would want as much fire power as they can bring to bare. Guess not for those who want to use AR's.
Most of the reason have been covered in this post. I will simply add that there is more initial fire power in a 12 ga shotgun then in a Sub Machine Gun or AR-15 Rifle. On my web site www.aiptactical.com is a red link titled "Gun Fight" and describes a demonstration that I witnessed at the Metro Dade Police range that proves it.
So, to deal with a threat against your life it seems one would want as much fire power as they can bring to bare. Guess not for those who want to use AR's.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
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See I grew up with images of guys in the jungles of Nam who were pointmen and they had shotguns. But, apparently that was very rare, and the only use shotguns get today in war is to blow doors off hinges. They are never used for actual fighting.
Same for LE work. They used to be popular, but now are rapidly dying out and the AR-15 is the gun to have.
Same for LE work. They used to be popular, but now are rapidly dying out and the AR-15 is the gun to have.
MIL-DOT
member
Contrary to popular sentiment, the "golden age of AR's" ain't long for this world.
Given the reality of inevitable hi-cap bans, the pump shotgun is still a highly effective tool in the home-defense arsenal, that is well worth considering, despite it's temporary fall from popularity among civilian and government "operators".
Given the reality of inevitable hi-cap bans, the pump shotgun is still a highly effective tool in the home-defense arsenal, that is well worth considering, despite it's temporary fall from popularity among civilian and government "operators".
As a counter-point to the above, I have never witnessed so strong of a counter Anti-gun culture either. We certainly didn't have it in the 90's when we got the AWB. That was even pre-Columbine.
Since the sunset of the AWB, we have had no adverse national anti-gun legislation. None, not even after Sandyhook and not after the multiple terrorist shootings. We have had a couple wins in the courts and push-back nationally for more guns and responsibly armed citizens.
I still like shotguns though, they are a great HD option. Lots of terminal performance per trigger pull (mine is loaded with #1 buck).
Since the sunset of the AWB, we have had no adverse national anti-gun legislation. None, not even after Sandyhook and not after the multiple terrorist shootings. We have had a couple wins in the courts and push-back nationally for more guns and responsibly armed citizens.
I still like shotguns though, they are a great HD option. Lots of terminal performance per trigger pull (mine is loaded with #1 buck).
Pokajabba
member
Police use of them is going down because with the spat of mass shootings and hostage taking, the spread of shot makes it dangerous to use as one pellet could kill or severely injure an innocent bystander.
The military use of shotguns in combat zones is going to be more widespread come the next conflict as more and more battles are taking place in urban areas and there's no better gun for house to house clearing than a shotgun. But, the military already has their shotguns picked in the 870 and 590's, so not much more to talk about than the AA-12, which for some reason has yet to be made in a semi-auto model and sold to regular citizens.
Personal use of shotguns for home defense is going away because the number of shots available, generally 4+1 or 8+1 is nothing compared to an AR's 30 rounds or a pistol's 15 or more rounds, not to mention the pistol is smaler and better for tight quarters and the lower recoil.
Shotguns are just getting outclassed by other guns available. They'll always be versatile guns and extremely reliable, but the size/weight of the guns and ammo is a severe detriment for any use outside of the home. They'll always be great sporting arms for Fudd's and claybusters.
The military use of shotguns in combat zones is going to be more widespread come the next conflict as more and more battles are taking place in urban areas and there's no better gun for house to house clearing than a shotgun. But, the military already has their shotguns picked in the 870 and 590's, so not much more to talk about than the AA-12, which for some reason has yet to be made in a semi-auto model and sold to regular citizens.
Personal use of shotguns for home defense is going away because the number of shots available, generally 4+1 or 8+1 is nothing compared to an AR's 30 rounds or a pistol's 15 or more rounds, not to mention the pistol is smaler and better for tight quarters and the lower recoil.
Shotguns are just getting outclassed by other guns available. They'll always be versatile guns and extremely reliable, but the size/weight of the guns and ammo is a severe detriment for any use outside of the home. They'll always be great sporting arms for Fudd's and claybusters.
lemaymiami
Member
For AIP Tactical - I learned the basics (and the advanced stuff ) from Metro-Dade as well... We went on to implement our own training regime years later...
For law enforcement a rifle makes more sense than a shotgun where long range or precise shots may need to be taken against a barricaded subject or hostage situation. For closer work I wouldn't call them superior to a shotgun but I think they hold their own well enough across the board to be the better choice.
Shane in MT
Member
The 5.56 carbine also has a capability to penetrate soft body armor. I believe that need came into sharp focus after the Hollywood bank robbery.
Shane in MT
Member
I still like the versatility of a shotgun, 12ga in particular. Suitable for most anything from doves to polar bears, within it's effective range.
I have a NEF Pardner single-shot, and an 870.
I keep the 870 pretty minimalistic, 870 Tactical, 6+1. I just put Magpul stock/forearm on it.
I have a NEF Pardner single-shot, and an 870.
I keep the 870 pretty minimalistic, 870 Tactical, 6+1. I just put Magpul stock/forearm on it.
Dragon breath
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Anyone who thinks that a 12 gauge pump with buckshot is not a viable home defense weapon has never seen one used on flesh. Animal or human.
Officers'Wife
Member
When one of the ppl in town were making fun of my brother for buying a Saiga 12 he kind of smiles and says think of it as a sub machine gun with a built in 9 round burst control. I have to look at it this way, shotguns have been around since the first soldier double shotted his musket in the matchlock period. They wouldn't have lasted this long if there were alternatives that represented a better value.
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brewer12345
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To each their own. I hunt with a shotgun a lot (required in some places I hunt and necessary for birds) and am comfy with them to the point of not needing to even think about it. It is very rare to have anything go wrong with a pump, and O/U and SxS are even more reliable. 12 gauges have about the best one shot stop record in the law enforcement data, and racking the slide on a pump is about the least friendly sound in the known universe. If worst comes to worse, a wood and steel 12 gauge is a better blunt instrument than an AR.
Pick what makes you comfy, but there are plenty of reasons some of us choose a shotgun for home defense.
Pick what makes you comfy, but there are plenty of reasons some of us choose a shotgun for home defense.
JTQ
Member
Tom Givens in the Rangemaster Newsletter, March 2016, on the defensive shotgun. http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-03_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf
The good quote is...
The good quote is...
entropy
Member
Exactly. That's why I have an Ithaca 37 (That I am not selling, Old Guy!) with PDX1's in it and 5 Tru-balls ready, sitting handy....
I have an 870 Tac Mag also, it was my deer gun until WI made rifle legal statewide; it has 4 Remington '0' Bucks in the SpeedFeed III, ready should I need that one also.
Screwball
Member
They are nice guns...
My dad had a Ducks Unlimited with a cracked stock, so when I saw an identical shotgun with a sound stock, I picked it up. Switched out the stock for him as a Father's Day present, and now have a Boyds stock on it (the forend is waiting on a new tube, since the gun used the Deluxe forend instead of the Classic that Boyds offers). Going to have the barrel cut down to about 19", and machined so the rib mount is flush with the end (also will be threaded for Remington chokes, since that is what I use). And once it is set, I'm thinking about having it plated/Parkerized (either all plate or a mixture) at CCR.
The best thing is when you take down an Ithaca. Strip the receiver down, and hold it in your hands... pure example of craftsmanship (similar to a Garand receiver). Built to stand the test of time.
Kendal Black
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I agree that the shotgun has lost a lot of its popularity. MSR types have largely eclipsed it. That does not mean that the shotgun's popularity will never return. For some uses, the shotgun has advantages nothing else can match. Those uses correspond rather closely to some very likely scenarios of individual, justifiable self-defense: short range, poor light, targets in motion. Think of it that way and suddenly the old idea of a scattergun with a headlight on it looks pretty good.
I still favor the shotgun as the self-defense long gun. I feel I am preaching to the choir, for those who see what I mean already arm themselves with shotguns.
Most of what is really useful to know about selecting and using shotguns is already contained in stickies above this thread.
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Sheepdog1968
Member
Thanks AI&P. As always, excellent info. I wish you worked on Mossbergs. Out of curiosity. For a light, do you reccomend the Surefire ones that are built into the front end?
tkroenlein
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There's a lot wrong with some of the "combat" shotguns out there. Big old ghost ring sights, pistol grips, and for crying out loud, AR buttstocks. There's not much more uncomfortable to shoot with full power slugs or buck than one of those. We took the quickest, most intuitive handling firearm and hung a bunch items designed for precision fire on it, and now it's slow and hurts to shoot. Is the "combat" shotgun dying? Yes. Good!
A plain old "riot gun" or a bargain bin deer combo with a rifle sighted 20" cylinder bore barrel is tough to beat for the defensive shotgun.
And, with shot sizes ranging from "shoots clear through a man and the house too" to "don't hardly break the skin," the RIGHT load can be chosen to defend the living room or the barnyard.
Only the shotgun can claim guaranteed one shot stops.
The defensive shotgun is alive and well, and will remain so. The purpose built "combat" shotgun, eh, not so much. Serviceable upgrades like from Magpul and Speedfeed will remain commonplace. Long after paying over $300 for a basic used AR is crazy.
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A plain old "riot gun" or a bargain bin deer combo with a rifle sighted 20" cylinder bore barrel is tough to beat for the defensive shotgun.
And, with shot sizes ranging from "shoots clear through a man and the house too" to "don't hardly break the skin," the RIGHT load can be chosen to defend the living room or the barnyard.
Only the shotgun can claim guaranteed one shot stops.
The defensive shotgun is alive and well, and will remain so. The purpose built "combat" shotgun, eh, not so much. Serviceable upgrades like from Magpul and Speedfeed will remain commonplace. Long after paying over $300 for a basic used AR is crazy.
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