Combat Shotguns: Dying?

[200Apples]

agtman

Well, don't forget that for civvies living in certain non-permissive states or restrictive municipal jurisdictions infested with crime, a shotty might be the only practical, defensive long-arm they can legally obtain and own.

There is also the lever-actuated tube-fed carbine. The '94, or a '92, or any of the Marlin persuasion. A .357 Magnum-chambered 16"-barreled Model 1892 can hold up to nine rounds and is both lighter in weight and shorter in length overall than an 18"-barreled 870 pump 12 gauge.

That said, I like both lever carbines and "combat" shotguns. I own four 18"-barreled 12 gauge shotguns; one 1100, two 870s and a S&W Model 3000.

No, combat shotguns (short, light and sweet) aren't going anywhere anytime soon, especially as MIL DOT alluded to with the potential for increased states' bans on standard-cap magazines (becoming limited to 10 rd capacity, for instance).

 

[fastbolt]

As a LE firearms instructor I've seen my fair share of folks avoid any extra shotgun training and practice because of the recoil. I've seen the venerable 12GA pump castigated when the MP5's were in vogue, and then again as the AR's started to supplant the 9mm subgun's.

Granted, the AR's have some distinct advantages for some specific roles in LE tasks, but the shotgun (especially the pump) is still a very versatile and viable tactical option for many LE needs. It does require training and some frequent practice, though, since it's not as easy to shoot as the minimally recoiling, gas operated AR.

Fortunately, I've been hearing and seeing some renewed interest in the pump shotgun as a LE weapon, and as more than a Less Lethal option.

I've got 1 AR of my own, but 3 shotguns ... and I'm not a hunter. 2 of my shotguns are 12GA pumps and 1 is an old 12GA Topper given to me by my father as a young man.

I've been considering selling my AR (taking it out-of-state to a licensed gun dealer) as the prices inevitably climb again, and replacing it with another 1 or 2 lever guns, and maybe another pump shotgun, as well as a takedown Ruger .22 carbine. I've been to more than enough AR armorer classes and recerts, and shooting and teaching the use of AR's has become more work and skills maintenance over the years then anything "fun".

I suspect we're going to see a slow resurgence of popularity and recognition of the tactical value of the 12GA pump ... in both LE and private citizen use ... again.

 

[Inebriated]

The semi-auto carbine gives up nothing to a shotgun, as it relates to a fighting long gun. They've got solid terminal ballistics, they're lighter, they're more compact, they are easier for smaller shooters or inexperienced shooters to handle, they aren't going to run out of range or require an ammunition swap when the fight moves from the house to the street... They work, and they are easier to work with than shotguns.

I like the fighting shotgun. I've put a lot of time in to get proficient with them, and I'm glad I did. I'm glad I still have a couple in the safe, too. But there is no compelling reason for me to grab one over an AR. There are others in the house that can't shoot a shotgun well, but they can shoot an AR. The AR is also a lot less physical. If I*jump out of bed at 3 am with the flu, or a back spasm, or a broken hand, I know I'll work much, much better with an AR.

All those things carry over to department needs, as well. Smaller shooters, getting injured in a fight, needing precision at range, general ease of use, it all matters, and when decent AR's cost a department in the same ballpark as an 870P or 590, why would the go to the shotgun? Especially when their qualification scores are likely improved with AR's.

Shotguns have their place, and I could go back to using one as my go-to with no real complaints. But there's no compelling reason for me to do so. I'll still take a $300 shotgun long before I'll take a $300 AR, though.

 

[goon]

I have been paying more attention to shotguns lately for their versatility. With a 24" barrel and interchangeable chokes, you can cover a lot of bases. It's a little short for some hunting, but still pretty serviceable. It's also maybe a few inches too long for dedicated home defense, but it's not too unwieldy to be pressed into service. Put an IC choke in it and load it with slugs if you have to and you can stop any animal that would want to harm you on the North American continent. You could even add or swap out barrels to better fit your uses if you need to.

But as a dedicated HD gun, AR's do have advantages. The 5.56 is both disproportionately damaging to an attacker and unlikely to overpenetrate. It's also easier on the shooter, so it's easier to practice with and easier to master. Last week at the range I ran across a guy who was teaching his teenage daughter to use his AR and he specifically mentioned self defense. A 12 gauge pump is heavier than an AR, and though they're not horrible with "tactical" buck shot loads, it does kick more than an AR.

And with handguns, if you're already in possession of a Glock 19 and a Glock 26 for CCW uses, it's only natural that you might want to stick with those for HD for a bit - especially if finances become tight.

 

[shafter]

The semi-auto carbine gives up nothing to a shotgun, as it relates to a fighting long gun. They've got solid terminal ballistics, they're lighter, they're more compact, they are easier for smaller shooters or inexperienced shooters to handle, they aren't going to run out of range or require an ammunition swap when the fight moves from the house to the street... They work, and they are easier to work with than shotguns.

I agree with this. When I think of a shotgun's versatility I'm usually factoring in hunting as well as fighting. If you strictly use your long gun for fighting then the shotgun begins to lose some of the versatility factor. It's still a fantastic showstopper but if I had to pick a carbine or a shotgun and have to keep all my bases covered tactically speaking I would go with a carbine. I like having long range capabilities just in case.

If I has the option I would probably throw a riot gun into the trunk as well even if I had to pay for it. Why not?

For a civilian looking to protect the homestead I think a shotgun is still a great option. So is an AR. Use proper ammo and take the time to become proficient with it and learn proper tactics and you'll be good to go.

 

[BSA1]

I'll chip in my nickels worth (inflation you know).

Rumors of the short barrel shotgun being dead is like the same rumors of the death of revolvers.

During the Banic of 2014 - 2015 shotshells were always on the store shelves in my area. Actually there were stacks of cases of shots shells in a variety of shot sizes including steel for waterfowl hunting.

Restrictive gun laws like in New York and most recently California eliminate much of the advantages of the AR/AK. Fixed magazine with low ammo capacity reduces much of the usefulness of the AR. Top loading the AR will be a major pain in the rear.

The pump gun can handle a wide selection of shot shells especially in 12 gauge.

In addition it is easy to have a two barrel combination, short for defense and long for hunting.

And it doesn't have to be a pump. My wife and daughter love our H&R single shot 12 gauge. There isn't anything more simple to operate. I have a ammo sleeve on the buttstock with additional rounds.

I am in the market for another one. I am going to shorten the barrel and buttstock to make it easier for my wife to handle along with being easier in CQB. I may even have it Ceracoated for a truck/outdoor gun.

Winchester may have won the West but it was the shotgun in the hands of settlers tamed it.

 

[farscott]

I wrote this on another board, but it sums up my viewpoint.

While the M4/AR is "more cooler", the pump shotgun has an enormous cost advantage for those people who are looking for a HD weapon on a budget. My personal preference is the 870. For many years, I bought every 870 Wingmaster or 870P I ran across that was in better than decent shape and cost less than $300. I finally had to stop as I had a safe full of shotguns, including two of the original Parkerized 870SP guns with the oiled walnut furniture. The 870 is very easy to service at home, with very few tools needed. About the only one I decided was a must is a forearm wrench. Parts are readily available, especially since whole shotguns cost less than a decent AR upper.

Ammo is available everywhere and was plentiful even during the aftermath of Sandy Hook. The 870 also does not look like an "evil, tacticool" weapon except for those people who festoon the poor gun with all kinds of AR-inspired "accessories", which may be a plus if ever used in a real situation where litigation is a certainty. The pump action also tends to reduce the tendency of people to launch more rounds than needed, as a separate and deliberate action is needed to fire another round.

As noted, there are some negatives. Recoil and stock fit are the two big ones, especially as perceived recoil is worsened by poor stock fit. Most 870 factory stocks are too long for most people. I personally like the Speedfeed IV-S stock as I have short arms. Learning to run the pump gun is another negative as many do not put in the time and rounds, and the 870 action release is in a strange area for newbies. Patterning the gun with your desired HD load is a must, one that most people skip. Rather than change choke tubes, I change shot hardness as the more expensive shells usually have more antimony and pattern tighter.

But if one puts in the time and shells, it is hard to beat the 870 for HD work.

 

[shafter]

How does the cost of buckshot/slugs compare to 223 for practice purposes? Feeding the AR is pretty cheap these days.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think a carbine is better for most defense or duty uses.
BUT in the face of AWB II, the shotgun may be the best we can do.

 

[Inebriated]

How does the cost of buckshot/slugs compare to 223 for practice purposes? Feeding the AR is pretty cheap these days.

It doesn't compare, really... The best bulk AR ammo is well under the best bulk buckshot or slugs.

~$0.35/round for XM193 vs. ~$0.60/round for XM12700 (buckshot) or F127RS (slugs).

And unlike with shotguns, I can run the same weight bullet as my defensive load in the AR's, but in a cheaper bulk loading. So I keep Remington Hog Hammers, which use a 62gr TSX bullet... I can run XM855, 62gr Brown Bear, or any other 62gr load and get a fairly similar POI and recoil impulse at a much lower price. Running birdshot through a defensive shotgun doesn't give near the feedback that defensive loads do, so the low cost of birdshot really is a moot point for me.

 

[Averageman]

I don't know how many of you have ever manipulated or attempted to manipulate an AR one handed. It can be done, but it isn't as easy as say a pistol or even a pump shotgun.
Reloading an AR one handed is something you really might want to be proficient with. No body wants to think about that kind of training much, but you should.

 

[Inebriated]

I don't know how many of you have ever manipulated or attempted to manipulate an AR one handed. It can be done, but it isn't as easy as say a pistol or even a pump shotgun.
Reloading an AR one handed is something you really might want to be proficient with. No body wants to think about that kind of training much, but you should.

Absolutely, one-handed training is important. And having done one-handed work with all of them, I have to ask how you find a pump shotgun easier to run than an AR with one hand?

Reloading an AR with one hand is a lot easier than reloading a shotgun with one hand, but there's a low probability that you'll have to do either one right now. Simply running the guns, however, is quite likely, and running an AR with one hand is astronomically faster than running the shotgun with one hand. Even clearing malfunctions in the AR with one hand rivals just running the pump with one hand.

Fatigue is also much lower when using the AR with one hand, meaning I'm much more steady in getting shots where they need to be.

 

[Jenrick]

I can say with conviction that a pump shotgun is no more or less difficult to operate then an AR style rifle IF there is a similar level (or lack ) of training. I am one of our range cadre for my agency, and as such I see a decent portion of the department come through when they qualify. Officers have just as much trouble making a shotgun work as they do an AR, if they have minimal proficiency and neglect any sustainment training. On the other hand we have several small statured (as in under 5') female officers who have taken it upon themselves to become proficient with the shotgun. They can run the daylights out of an adjustable stock 870, and get faster and better hits then much larger but less proficient male officers can with their rifles.

I personally prefer the shotgun for CQB tasks, as modern ammunition provides extremely good terminal effect and lighter recoil. For exterior tasks (if I lived on a ranch for instance) the shotgun does not have quite the reach of an AR style platform (500+ yds), but out to 150-200 yds a common slug will do tremendous damage.

A shotgun does tremendous work with each trigger pull, equivalent to multiple rounds from other weapons. A single slug for that matter, will expand into about a 2" lead disc, about 1/4" thick. The wound track it cuts in gel (and people), is massive even in reduced recoil loadings.

Effective CQB engagements rely on getting fast accurate hits to cause enough damage to the threat to prevent them from engaging you. A shotgun is a force multiplier in the context of just how much damage each shell can cause. With proper technique and training a pump shotgun can be run just about as rapidly as most people are comfortable running a pistol, while doing far more damage with each pull of the trigger.

One additional advantage of the shotgun is that you can add to the your ammunition supply incrementally, rather than an all or nothing magazine swap. If you presume a 2 shell engagement per target and lets say 5 rounds of 5.56 that gives you roughly 3-4 engagements with a shotgun, and 5-6 with the rifle. That's really not that many for either weapon system. With a rifle, I have to make the choice after 2 or 3 engagements to determine if I want to change mags. With a shotgun, I can simply top off after each engagement potentially. Now I'm not saying that that's a huge advantage but it is an advantage.

-Jenrick

 

[giggitygiggity]

Shotguns have their place, but when buying a defensive long gun, most people are more likely to go with an AR... They can be had in the $450-550 price range all day long and ammo is far less expensive than OO buck or slugs and can be customized and are regarded as far more tacticool than most shotguns. That said, defensive shotguns still have their place and I am looking forward to my stamp coming back so I can outfit one of my 870Ps with a 14" barrel. However, shotguns, like ARs, must be aimed in order to score hits... the notion that you can just "point and shoot" a shotgun and hit is nonsense. I think most people know this and would rather have an AR that has virtually no recoil and can score hits at 500m rather than a heavy recoiling shotgun that holds far fewer rounds than an AR.

And yes, defensive shotguns have largely been relegated to breeching, military base gate guarding, and some police roles (firing lethal and non lethal loads such as tear gas shells, bean bag shells, and rubber slugs).

 

[Averageman]

[Reloading an AR with one hand is a lot easier than reloading a shotgun with one hand, but there's a low probability that you'll have to do either one right now. Simply running the guns, however, is quite likely, and running an AR with one hand is astronomically faster than running the shotgun with one hand. Even clearing malfunctions in the AR with one hand rivals just running the pump with one hand.

Fatigue is also much lower when using the AR with one hand, meaning I'm much more steady in getting shots where they need to be./QUOTE]

I simply find it much easier with the shotgun, reloading and especially charging the weapon are much easier, with a sling they are equally as easy for me to fire.
One handed manipulation of the AR controls require more manipulations of the weapons controls and side to side movements. The difficulty of charging the weapon (if required) one handed can be extremely difficult under stress.
I respect your opinion, I just can't agree with it from my experience.

 

[Inebriated]

I respect your opinion, I just can't agree with it from my experience.

Same here. As long as you are confident in yourself and proficient with your choices, that's the key.

 

[Old Guy]

entropy,

And you are not selling it? Are well.

If I am leaving to go? My Steyr AUG Bull Pup is barrel off, in back pack. Ten new magazines, hollow point at 3000fps, 300 rounds, a 1.5 fixed scope.
Great light gathering.

Fire a 12 gage, in a house? forget a phone use for hours.
Best in the house, a 9mm. Still loud, but not as bad as 12 gauge/.223 in a house.

 

[Kendal Black]

Speed kills

A point several have raised: A really well thought out shotgun for fighting doesn't sacrifice the fast and natural handling of the sporting shotgun. The police and military guns of the last century were essentially bird guns with less barrel and firing larger shot. That is the right idea. Perhaps the best realization of the idea was the British L32A1. What was that? It was a Browning Auto-5 that lost some of its barrel somewhere and gained a couple of sling swivels.






Good show! The same sort of gun that is a danger to a clay disk, a dove or a rabbit in afterburner might just be the best gun to have for close-in defensive use.

 

[bushmaster1313]

These puppies are easy to point and there is no better way to put down the hurt in close quarters combat:

 

[200Apples]

.
^ ^ ^ Nice, Kendal, and bushmaster!

As do others posting in this thread and as I mentioned earlier, I like my social shotguns short, sweet and simple. I have several pump guns but wanted a semiauto too.

I had this 1100 and wanted to enhance it's fighting capability, so I tried to emulate a competition 3-gun shotgun with it. It had the 22" smoothbore slug barrel already on it so I added a factory two-shot magazine extension and a factory competition carrier...




I was under the impression that 21 or 22" was the shortest factory barrel available for the older 1100... until a feller posted here on THR about his 1100 and it's extraction issues with this new, factory 18" barrel... One thing led to another and I had one on the way within the hour...



Now THAT's better.

 

[I6turbo]

A point several have raised: A really well thought out shotgun for fighting doesn't sacrifice the fast and natural handling of the sporting shotgun. The police and military guns of the last century were essentially bird guns with less barrel and firing larger shot. That is the right idea. Perhaps the best realization of the idea was the British L32A1. What was that? It was a Browning Auto-5 that lost some of its barrel somewhere and gained a couple of sling swivels.




Good show! The same sort of gun that is a danger to a clay disk, a dove or a rabbit in afterburner might just be the best gun to have for close-in defensive use.

My situation exactly. I love it for clays, doves and pigeons, or HD. I have other shotguns but this is one that I always enjoy taking out. I have the sling swivels but have never installed them.


Some scale perspective:

 

[BSA1]

How does the cost of buckshot/slugs compare to 223 for practice purposes? Feeding the AR is pretty cheap these days.

Personally I prefer #4 high power shells for self-defense and #6's for both self-defense and big bird hunting.

If you buy by the case and watch for sales in the Fall hunting season you can save bucks.

 

[I6turbo]

How does the cost of buckshot/slugs compare to 223 for practice purposes? Feeding the AR is pretty cheap these days.

Assuming you don't reload, buckshot is significantly more costly than target/field loads. Buckshot is in the $.40/round range and up. Target/field loads are in the $.23/round range (such as the ~$5.50/25 rounds Winchester and Federal stuff at Walmart). A good way to practice economically with a shotgun is to limit the amount of buckshot you use for practice, using target/field loads instead.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks guys. It appears that although the combat shotgun has waned in popularity in recent times, it still has a good following by those who appreciate it's assets.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I haven used my 870 riot in years. AR replaced it less recoil, more shots, and longer range ( Ilive in country) Be it animal or human rifle better choice.